PH & Stability Question

[JPetrillo]

Hello everyone - I just set my aquarium up this last Thursday, right now there are 14 Diano's in there to get the Nitrogen cycle done before I get my cichlids!

It's a 30 gallon tank, I have the EMP 400 filter with crushed coral in the two extra media containers they give you for the filter. For the 1st two days my pH was staying right at 8.0, which wasnt too bad, but since yesterday it dropped to 7.8 - It may be because I have a few Java Ferns in the tank?

Anyways I was hoping I'm not going to have a problem with the pH dropping because if I keep on having to add baking soda (what I use to get pH right at 8.2) then I'm going to have a problem because that makes my kH go up too!

My tap water:
pH - 7.2
gH - 5
kH - 4

My Home-Made Buffer changes tap to:
pH - 8.2
gH - 8
kH - 11

I have not added my buffer to my tank yet, so thats why it wasnt 8.2 and right now its 7.8 - But once I do it should be at pH 8.2, gH 8, and kH 11 - If my pH drops in less then one week after I get those levels in my tank what should I do? Because if I add more of my buffer my pH will be back at 8.2, but my kH will go up even more.

Thanks,
Jesse

P.S. - I'll be getting Yellow Labs and Red Zebras and I cant use Proper PH8.2 in combo with Cichlid Salt because for some reason my pH does not go up to 8.2 - It brings it up to about 8.6-8.8 somehow!

[SGypsyMermaid]

http://www.cichlidforums.com/showthr...?s=&threadid=1

[JPetrillo]

Well good for all those people and their perfect tap water!

I hope my crushed coral in my filter will be enough to keep it from crashing, I shouldnt have a problem since I'll be doing water changes once a week or once ever two weeks at the longest if I miss a week.

I really dont have room for new rock of coral heads. Kinda wish I did though, if anything maybe ill add some crushed coral to the substrate. I just wanted to see if anyone had some different suggestions I havent thought about or knew why Proper PH8.2 would bring me up to 8.6 and not 8.2! hehe.

I just know how important it is to keep the pH stable at whatever level its at, since it was at 8.0 for two days then dropped to 7.8 it scared me making me think maybe it wont be so easy keeping my pH stable.

-Jesse

[cichgirl]

Hi Jesse, welcome!
The most important in my opinion would be stability. I would stick to crushed coral either in your filter or your substrate to try to maintain a higher ph. I wouldn't play with it too much after you get your fish because the higher and lower ph will stress the fish which in turn will do more harm than a stable lower ph.

Remember, you will need to be doing weekly water changes, so the safest and most effective way to treat your water would be the most gentle and natural way. I hope this helps you.....

[JPetrillo]

Yes cichgirl - That helps

I'll try to keep it as stable as I can - I just hope the crushed coral in my filter is enough to do the job! I can make the whole substrate crushed coral if I wanted to right? Im thinking about doing that and totally changing the look of my tank since it hasnt even cycled yet. After I looked at some other users tanks and found out you could buy holey rocks on eBay I kind of want to change it around... or at least my next tank

-Jesse

[punkypuffer]

if you can get limestone that will also stabilise your pH like crushed coral does. it brings it up pretty well. here in texas it is all over the place so we sell it for 99 cents a pound. I'm not sure where you are from, but good 'ol limestone works great for us

[z rock]

You need to add baking soda and keep the Kh up around 200-300 ppm.What is that about 11 to 20 drops.At 11 your only at the minimum KH.
Your gonna be washing out any benifit you get from coral or limestone being in the filter from doing water changes faster than it can dissolve.Once all that coral or limestone gets covered in bacteria it won't dissolve.Need to go back in with water the same KH and PH you took out.If you add hard water with a high KH and GH to the tank coral or limestone won't dissolve a whole lot.

The KH needs to be high enough so it never runs out.If it does then Ph will start fluctuating.

If you live in a low Ph area then the limestone or coral would be a good idea.It seems like an area like Austin would have hard water but then again it rains so much around there I don't know.

[punkypuffer]

in austin the pH out of the tap is 8.1-8.3 no matter how much it rains because the limestone is so abundant in the ground (for our groundwater) and the surface (for the runoff). its excellent to keep the african lake cichlids

[JPetrillo]

Hrmmm, okay - I read you want to keep kH around 10 or 11 so thats what I got my buffer to come up with a pH of 8.2, kH around 11, and gH of 8 - I can EAISLY add more baking soda and get a kH in the 20's without a problem, and baking soda WILL NOT bring it up over 8.2 pH either, do you guys think that maybe I should bring the kH up higher? I can also add more Epsom salt and get the gH up too if I wanted too

Since I dont have a lot of crushed coral and no dead coral heads or lime stone (anything like that) maybe it would be a good idea to bring the kH up to 20 or so to be sure the pH wont drop in-between water changes???

Thanks everyone,
Jesse

[z rock]

Here's a link to some articles at a good Koi site.There's one about baking soda in the list but there all worth a read.Some of those Koi sell for thousands of dollars.
http://home.netcom.com/~larry_l/koi.htm

[JPetrillo]

Well yeah, so basically they are saying the same thing... a higher kH will hold the pH better than a lower kH.

I dont know about them saying the baking soda brought their water up to 8.0 and no higher because I know for a fact baking soda takes mine up to 8.2 and not higher. Either way its the same idea I guess... once the baking soda quits bring up the pH you can still add more and more and keep the kH going up.

As long as I know that a high kH (say in the upper 20's) will hold my pH more stable and NOT hurt the fish then thats what I'll do

-Jesse

Edit: This may be getting a little off topic "Malawi Cichlids" now, any moderators - feel free to move it to "Your Aquarium: Equipment, Water Chemistry, Maintenance" if you feel it to be necessary.

[z rock]

It's been my experience that baking soda locks in about 8.2 once the water is buffered with it and it won't go any higher.Baking soda is Bi-carbonate.The carbonates are what raises the Kh and Ph.
Limestone probably consist more of calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate,that would contribute more to just the GH and not raise the PH at all.

There is swimming pool Ph increaser,or soda ash,which is sodium carbonate.It may take the Ph higher but it can be dangerous if not used carefully.I've not used it to know for sure a whole lot about it.

Baking soda is completly safe,it's an old remedy for heartburn.

I have heard of people that had water so soft that BS took there Ph higher but there water was totaly backwards from most and not very common.If they would have ever put enough BS in there it probably would have come around but it would have taken a LOT to get it there and make it hold.
Someone with water like that sould seriously look into south americans.It will be a constant pain.

[JPetrillo]

Okay... but what I'm trying to find out is if it's okay or not to have a higher kH for Lake Malawi Cichlids.

I understand the fish I'm getting from petstores have never seen a lake before, but I dont care... I'm still trying to get the paramemters as close to natural as I can...

Lake Malawi:
pH - 7.8-8.6
kH - 10-12 degrees
gH - 7 degrees
temp - 73-82F

My Tank:
pH - 8.2
kH - 11
gH - 7
temp - 80F

As you can see I've worked hard to achieve all levels in the correct ranges to match Lake Malawi...

So my questions is: Will my Cichlids be okay if I bring the kH up into the 20's to insure my pH stays more stable?

Thank you,
Jesse

[z rock]

You have to bring the KH up to keep the Ph stable.They are directly related.
It's futile to try to duplicate the exact water parameters of any of the lakes.The water parameters will fluctuate depending on how close one may be to the mouth of a river,how much rain has fallen,or how deep you go to take a sample.
Co2 fluctuations affect the Ph.If there has been a storm and the lake is choppy then it would expel Co2 and the Ph of that area would go higher.If there has been a drought and calm sea's then that could have an effect.
Lake Tanganyika has place's that the Ph may go over PH 9.0 What makes it do that I don't know exactly but it probably has something to do with the Co2 content of any given area and/or the composition of the rocks around the area.

If you had 10 different fish in your tank from Lake Malawi,chances are they came from 10 different areas from around the lake.It's possible that the water perameters from each of those 10 areas would be slightly different.But,if you choose any single area that one of those fish came from then the water in that area probably remains pretty much constant.This is what we want in our aquarium's,stable water conditions.The easier it is to maintain that stability over the long haul the better.

Co2 is an acid produced by fish and bacteriological waste.That acid is constantly working to overcome the carbonate buffering in the water.Once it does the Ph will start dropping.

Ammonia is more toxic at a higher PH,so there's no reason to go over the Ph 8.2 from the baking soda.

The rift lakes are incredibly stable when compared to the Amazon river.But they still aren't as stable as the ocean.The oceans have the same 8.2Ph no matter where in the world the sample came from.

You could dump 3 boxes of BS in there and it wouldn't hurt the fish.All it would do is raise the KH.The Ph would not go over 8.2.

If you multiply the dGh by 17.9 it will give you ppm of alkalinity.The idea is to keep the alkalinity between 100-300ppm to have a stable Ph of 8.2

Really it's possible to not even worry about Ph and just measure KH all the time.

[JPetrillo]

LOL - All I need was a yes or no ;)

Will my Cichlids be okay if I bring the kH up into the 20's to insure my pH stays more stable?

Since lake Malawi stays around 10kH all I wanted to do was double check (since they originated from a lake with about 10kH) that it would it be safe to bring my tank water up into the 20's kH... I know all I have to do is add more baking soda.

So I guess from what you said above ment "yes"?