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Thread: Re: My F1 Psammochromis riponianus

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Bronx, NY, 10461

    Default Re: My F1 Psammochromis riponianus

    Psammochromis riponianus is one of the more rare Victorians in the hobby. Only one wild caught pair was brought in the country. I had the opportunity of getting some F1 young adults. I lost almost all of the in a bloat outbreak about 2 months after receiving them . Luckily for me 1.2 survived. I been breeding them here are some pic's of my breeder male and one of my females that drooped her tube down today.

    The pic's do represent the true red color of the fish. In the pictures the Male looks more of a red/orange. In person the male has a a deep bright red color to him. I will try to get better pic's of the male. If I do I'll post them on this thread

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    loveland colo.


    great looking fish vinman thanks for the look it has great color!
    125 gallon male aulonocara peacocks
    125 gallon male haps.
    90 gallon grow out tank
    90 gallon demasoni,cyno,afra,hongi srt.
    90 gallon planted apisto.tank
    2-10 gallon med. quarintine tanks


  3. Default

    look at this one is too misidentified)
    another misidentified fish with a red belly
    so as yu see many different species can have quite similar coloration, to be sure we deal with a real species we'll have to look at the dental pattern, the form of teeth, the external morphology and the behaviors.
    like a haplo in the water

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Jacksonville Florida


    Hey Xris, thanks for the info.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Bronx, NY, 10461


    thats what they are calling them in the states and that what I going to selling my fry as untill some can prove them to be something else

  6. Default

    That's not the good way, before saying something is something, the one has to prove it( have yu any scientific article or paper that prove this fish is really H.riponiannus) , I put many infos to show you how inaccurate this name is, yu can even look at the pix I put in link to see by yourself, it is not by repeating false things that they become true, no???If a fish is not described then it MUST be called Haplochromis.sp, this is the taxonomic law, this fish is H.sp"Boyanga" it means unknown species caught at Boyanga.I'll put the description of H.riponiannus by Ole Seehausen and yu'll see by yourself how innacurate this name is for this sp Boyanga.
    like a haplo in the water

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Bronx, NY, 10461


    Well then you go and make everyone in the USA change the name or pay to have the taxonomy on the fish. Untill then in this country they are Psammochromis riponianus . If this bothers you so much then do something about it. If not then you should not put so much effort into saying they are not Psammochromis riponianus as you have no proff they arent Psammochromis riponianus. I'm not saying your wrong just do something about it if you feel that strongly about the fish being mis labeled

    I'm not getting nasty just being realistic as I seen you have this convo many times on the internet

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Flagstaff, Az


    But see then Vin youd be selling false info on fish that aren't for sure what you say they are. I recently bought Wild caught Gallireya reef cichlids but I have no idea that they are wild caught, All because the seller says they are. I'm not questioning whether or not they are the species you say they since I have no clue on Vic's, but in the same breathe Samaki has a point.
    125g- Labidochromis caerulous, Sciaenochromis fryeri Maleri Island, Protomelas Taeniolatus Male, Cynotilapia Sp. Gallireya Reef (White Top Hara) W/C + F1

    40g- Oblique zebras

    20g long- ocellatus "gold", calvus "white" Chaitika

  9. Default

    ETYMOLOGY. From the Greek 'psammos\ sand, + chromis, referring to the sandy substrata
    seemingly preferred by most members of the genus.
    DIAGNOSIS. Haplochromines reaching a maximum adult size of 100-123 mm SL, the body
    relatively slender to moderately deep (31-43% SL, modal range 36-38%); lips thickened in
    all species, the lower lobate in one.
    Neurocranium of a near-generalized type but shallower in the otico- occipital region
    (40-46% neurocranial length).
    Outer jaw teeth tall and slender, their crowns recurved and either compressed or finely
    acuminate and cylindrical in cross-section. Very unequally bicuspid teeth present in specimens
    of all sizes, but unicuspids predominate in fishes > 80-90 mm SL; 24-68 teeth in the
    outer premaxillary row.
    Inner teeth tall and slender, tri- or unicuspid, and usually implanted so as to lie almost
    horizontally; commonly arranged in 2-4 rows anteriorly.
    Premaxilla with a definite anterior beak, its ascending processes longer than the
    dentigerous arms, which have a slight ventral decurvature over the posterior half (more
    marked in some species than in others).
    Dentary with a very distinctiveform, each ramus noticeably inflated anteriorly and anterolaterally,
    this circumscribed swelling extending almost to the bone's ventral profile. Over this
    region (and slightly behind it) the narrow outer margin ofthe alveolar surface dips distinctly
    downward so that the outer tooth row also has a ventral inflection (see Fig. 32).
    Lower pharyngeal bone in some species moderately stout, its median teeth enlarged and
    submolariform, but the bone slender and without enlarged teeth in others.
    like a haplo in the water

  10. Default

    Habitus (Fig. 31). There are few outstanding features in the habitus of most Psammochromis
    species. The body varies from relatively slender to moderately deep (31^43%SL, modal
    range 36-38%), the dorsal head profile is straight or gently curved, and slopes fairly steeply.
    All species have thickened lips, and the lower lip may be lobate in P. aelocephalus, which
    species also has a highly variable snout form (noticeably protracted in some individuals; see
    Greenwood, 19596 : 214-17).
    Maximum adult size ranges from 100-123 mm SL; individuals reach sexual maturity at a
    length of 80-85 mm in those species attaining the larger maximum sizes.
    54 P. H. GREENWOOD

    Neurocranium. The skull is of a near-generalized type but has a lower otico-occipital
    region (depth 40-46% neurocranial length) so that the preotic dorsal profile slopes downwards
    and forwards fairly gently; the supraoccipital crest is relatively low and is wedgeshaped
    in profile.
    Although in one species (P. riponianus) some individuals have the pharyngeal mill
    enlarged to a degree comparable with that in Gaurochromis (Mylacochromis) obtusidens (see
    p. 34), there is no corresponding enlargement of the pharyngeal apophysis on the skull base.
    As compared with those congeneric species not having an enlarged pharyngeal mill, the
    parasphenoid contribution to the apophysis in P. riponianus is slightly more expansive, but
    the basioccipital facets are barely larger.
    A characteristic feature of two species from Lake Victoria (P. riponianus and P. saxicola),
    is the very abraded crowns on most outer teeth, which then appear bluntly incisiform.
    Inner teeth are also slender and tall, tricuspid in small individuals but unicuspid in larger
    fish, implanted so as to lie almost horizontally, and generally embedded deeply in the oral
    mucosa (Greenwood, 1960 : 254). There may be as many as 5 rows of inner teeth anteriorly
    in each jaw; the modal numbers are, however, 2-4.
    Mouth. Lips are clearly and equally thickened, but in one species (P. aelocephalus)
    the lower lip may be produced anteriorly into a small but definite mental lobe.
    The mouth is horizontal or but slightly oblique; this, combined with the thickened lips and
    particular head profile, impart to the members of this lineage a very characteristic but
    indefmeable physiognomy (see Fig. 31; also figs 13 & 14 in Greenwood, 1960; and figs 20 &
    21 in Greenwood, 1973).
    Upper jaw. The premaxilla is somewhat expanded and protracted anteriorly and anteromedially
    into a definite beak or peak. Its ascending processes are longer than the dentigerous
    arms, which have a slight but distinct ventral curvature over their posterior halves (the curve
    more marked in some species than in others).
    The maxilla is elongate and slender in P. saxicola but relatively foreshortened and deep in
    the other species. In none is the medial face of the posterior arm strongly concave (and thus
    the lateral aspect is but slightly bullate), and none has a marked medial curvature of its
    articular head.
    Lower jaw. The most trenchant and diagnostic synapomorphy linking members of this
    lineage lies in the morphology of the dentaryAnteriorly and anterolaterally the bone immediately below the alveolar surface is
    distinctly inflated, the well-circumscribed swelling extending almost to the ventral margin of
    each ramus. Over this swollen region, and a little behind it as well, the narrow outer margin
    of the alveolar surface dips downwards so that the line of outer teeth also dips ventrally in
    that region of the jaw. Consequently the tips of the outer teeth are on a level with those of the
    much smaller inner teeth.
    The dentary also departs from the generalized type in being relatively shallower. Thus,
    although the length of the entire lower jaw (dentary + anguloarticular) is within the
    'generalized' range (33^49% head length) it gives the impression of being much more slender
    and attenuated.Dentition. The outer row jaw teeth are slender and tall, the body and recurved crowns
    either relatively
    No mental protuberance is developed at the dentary symphysis. Indeed, the ventral
    symphysial profile slopes backwards so that the jaw appears 'chinless', except for a slight
    vertically directed ventral projection at the symphysial base.
    Lower pharyngeal bone and teeth. There is considerable inter- and some intraspecific
    variation in the stoutness of the bone, and there are correlated differences in the nature of its
    dentition (see Greenwood, 1 959 : 2 1 6; 1 960 : 254 & 258, and figs 4 & 5).
    All or some of the teeth in the four median rows may be enlarged and are often molariform
    or submolariform. The remaining teeth, and sometimes those of the median rows as well, are
    weakly cuspidate and compressed (except, as is usual, for the robust teeth in the posterior
    transverse row).
    56 P. H. GREENWOOD
    Squamation. Except in two species, the scales anteriorly and ventrally on the chest region
    are distinctly smaller than those on the ventral flanks and belly, and appear to be more
    deeply embedded. There is, however, no abrupt size change between the scales of the two
    regions, which grade imperceptibly into one another (see Greenwood, 1979 : 270-2).
    In the exceptional taxa (P. acidens and P. cassius) the chest scales are not obviously
    smaller than the belly scales, and do not give the appearance of being deeply embedded.

    It's possible when looking at the teeth of yur fish to know if it's really H.riponiannus, I didn't want to upset yu but identifying a victorian species is much more complicated if yu don't have all the elements, i give yu some here that can help yu to understand that a name species of a fish can't be given to an unknwon one without being really investigated. But there's something simple to know if it's H.riponiannus, look at the belly by returning yur fish, if it has deeply embedded scales on the belly(these scales are really much more smaller than those from the flanks) to have a point of comparison, look at the belly of a Pundamilia or a Neochromis species, then it's not H.riponiannus as this species lacks this characteristics(yu can read it in the diagnosis I posted) and yu can look at it with yur own eyes. The problem when dealing with vics is wrong ids and I can see alots of people buying fishes and asking after what this fish is, I see also very often mislabelled fishes crossed with good species and originate undidentfied fishes , this problem can lead some of the rarest vics unto extinction from our own tanks.Yu asked me elements, here they are. I'll post the description of H.riponiannus so yu'll make yur own advice.
    like a haplo in the water

  11. Default

    here's the description in livin colors Ole Seehausen, rock victoria cichlids p182-3:"male active in reproduction can be metallic blue on the flanks with a light underside.Similarly light blue is in such fishes the dorsal fin that bears a dark grey margin and red lappets the caudal fin is distally red and the anal fin is light red with small egg dummies. In other populations males are darker blue grey to green grey with similar butt darker fin coloration(Van Oijen 1978)In many populations the pelvic fins are black in the spinous, red on the branched ray part.Sexually quiescent males are silvery grey with some blue flush on the flanks.Females are more or less intensely golden yellowish and carry like the males six or seven vertical bars on the flanks;"

    so yu see following this description that the fish named riponiannus in the US can't be this species at all as it is differently coloured.This point is very important, a species is designed also by its male coloration. If the fish doesn't match the male nuptial dress, then it can't be this species and the named used for it has to change.I'm sure that yu understand that if some people import the real riponiannus one day, it'll be crossed with this sp Boyanga without knowing that hybrids are created and in good faith, just because a wrong name is used.
    Last edited by samaki; 02-26-2013 at 12:50 PM.
    like a haplo in the water

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Bronx, NY, 10461


    Quote Originally Posted by IanR29 View Post
    But see then Vin youd be selling false info on fish that aren't for sure what you say they are. I recently bought Wild caught Gallireya reef cichlids but I have no idea that they are wild caught, All because the seller says they are. I'm not questioning whether or not they are the species you say they since I have no clue on Vic's, but in the same breathe Samaki has a point.
    The problem thats what they are lablied in this country everyone who has them are calling them Psammochromis riponianus. Only one pair was caught in the lake and brought to this country. I have no idea if any taxonomy was done.

  13. Default

    Vin do yu agree with me that the consequences could be dramatic for this species if it were crossed with another one ? That's why I propose the name sp"Boyanga" wich clearly indicate the statu of the fish.
    If yu have a mail adress i can make an article comes to you with a picture so yu can see how looks like the riponiannus
    Last edited by samaki; 02-26-2013 at 12:52 PM.
    like a haplo in the water

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Bronx, NY, 10461


    Bottom line is if it bothers you that much do something about it or leave it alone. If you like I can send you some fry for free to get proper ID . You just pay the shipping fees to get them to you and where they will do the nomenclature. Even better than that you can tell me where In the USA that can do a proper nomenclature on them . Until then I will be selling them as Psammochromis riponianus like everyone else in the states unless they come up with a temporary name for the fish . Example ( Hap SP 135 )

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Bronx, NY, 10461


    sp "Boyanga" would be fine . I dont really care what people want to call them as long as everyone is on the same boat. I'm going to contact Paul V. Loiselle and see if he would like to do the work on the fish. He is ni NYC and I know him well

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