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Thread: can a red devil be with african cichlids

  1. #1
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    Default can a red devil be with african cichlids

    can an american chichlid like the red devil be with african chichlid both with the same water conditions or do africans need a different set up if so what's the difference in tank settings

  2. #2

    Default Re: can a red devil be with african cichlids

    Originally posted by Allah'sSlave
    can an american chichlid like the red devil be with african chichlid both with the same water conditions or do africans need a different set up if so what's the difference in tank settings

    I guess first off you'd have to find an american and african species tolerant of the same water conditions. Red Devils would not thrive in any african water parameters I can think of, though their half progeny - blood parrot hybrids - I understand are kept successfully with even african lake cichlids. Kribs, being african, can be put in with S. americans though I doubt if a Red Devil would tolerate THEM.

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    Red Devils actually originate from the hard alkaline water of the great Nicaraguan lakes and crater lakes. As far as water conditions are concerned, they are quite similar to lakes Malawi and Tanganyika. Some small and very tough African Rift lake cichlids such as many of the Mbuna could potentially make good tank mates for a Red Devil.

  4. #4

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    Originally posted by Rex Karr
    Red Devils actually originate from the hard alkaline water of the great Nicaraguan lakes and crater lakes. As far as water conditions are concerned, they are quite similar to lakes Malawi and Tanganyika. Some small and very tough African Rift lake cichlids such as many of the Mbuna could potentially make good tank mates for a Red Devil.
    Mbunas -

    http://members.ozemail.com.au/~titus2/zebras.html
    Freshwater tropical, hard and alkaline; pH 8.0, dGH 9.0 - 12, temperature within the range 25-27C.

    http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/mbuna2.htm
    Therefore, in an aquarium setup, the GH should be 7 or higher, KH around 10-12 and pH close to 8. Never allow the pH of a Malawi setup to fall below 7.0 and into the acidic range.

    Tanganyikans -

    http://www.aquariumsite.com/freshwater/fish.php
    Tanganyika cichlids prefer hard water with high pH levels (8-9).

    http://www.duboisi.com/tanganyikarec.htm
    Tanganyikans require alkaline water with a Ph of 8.3 to 9.0. You must also avoid sudden changes in Ph, as this will stress the fish.

    Red Devils

    http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...=21&pCatId=924
    Tank Conditions: 72-77F; pH 6.8-7.2

    http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/greddevil.html
    Name: Amphilophus labiatus
    Size 25cm Tank 600 L pH 7.0 Temp 27 C


    As you can see there is quite a range between the pH tolerances of Red Devils and african lake cichlids. This not to mention size and aggression differential problems.

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    You cannot always rely on what various websites say. Many sites are put together from 3rd person info and outdated aquarium books. Rather than believe every website I come across, I choose to get my information from those who have true experiance. Nicaraguan cichlids make up a tiny percent of the commonly available fish in the hobby, and exact information about the water parameters is dufficult to locate. However if you will take a look in the Aqualog book, South American Cichlids III you will see that a pH of 7.5-8.5 is recommended for Red Devils.

    By the way, the Ampilophus are definantly my favorites. Right now I'm keeping 14 fish from this genus. I've done much more research than the average Red Devil keeper.

  6. #6
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    And as for "size and aggression differential problems".

    Large aggressive cichlids often ignore smaller cichlids and other fish that the do not consider to be any threat. People often have much better luck keeping an adult Red Devil with smaller Mbuna and Convicts rather than an equally sized cichlid.

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    True........ did you see the article in the Buntbarsche Bulletin about the beanis? Dan (was it Dan? I think so....) used mbuna (zebras, I think) as dither fish for the beani. Their small size and scrappiness made them good tankmates for the beani.

    I know it doesn't seem as if it should be true, especially when you can find seemingly endless sites and books that speak to the contrary, but most sources are amateurish at best. Many don't even differentiate between South and Central America.

    Devils are from Central America, and Rex speaks the truth (common or not!). Most CA cichlids come from hard alkaline water, and Devils (the various Devils that is) come from extremely hard and alkaline water. I would trust the specific water parameters from a fishes collection site before I trust any book.

    I you want sources to quote........... quote those of experts in the specific field of Neotropical cichlids. Look for Juan Migel's site (The Cichlid Room Companion) or anything from Loiselle or Konings. I think you'll find that Rex is right on the mark.

    I think it is key to note that while Devils are from hard, alkaline waters they are very tolerant of other conditions. Tangs and mbuna aren't as adaptable. Still, my wild caught Devils require hard water to thrive as they are not as tolerant as their cousins that have been raised in tanks for generations. Without some buffering, my wild caught fish show definite signs of stress.

    BTW........ I only trust two or three forums on the web. Unless you know the people behind the screen names you can never be sure whose advice you are taking!

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    You guys have to be some of the most knowledgeable ichthyologist that I have come across
    Last edited by Poet8102; 12-15-2003 at 05:15 AM.
    never follow, never lead

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    Originally posted by chc
    True........ did you see the article in the Buntbarsche Bulletin about the beanis? Dan (was it Dan? I think so....) used mbuna (zebras, I think) as dither fish for the beani. Their small size and scrappiness made them good tankmates for the beani.

    I know it doesn't seem as if it should be true, especially when you can find seemingly endless sites and books that speak to the contrary, but most sources are amateurish at best. Many don't even differentiate between South and Central America.

    Devils are from Central America, and Rex speaks the truth (common or not!). Most CA cichlids come from hard alkaline water, and Devils (the various Devils that is) come from extremely hard and alkaline water. I would trust the specific water parameters from a fishes collection site before I trust any book.

    I you want sources to quote........... quote those of experts in the specific field of Neotropical cichlids. Look for Juan Migel's site (The Cichlid Room Companion) or anything from Loiselle or Konings. I think you'll find that Rex is right on the mark.

    I think it is key to note that while Devils are from hard, alkaline waters they are very tolerant of other conditions. Tangs and mbuna aren't as adaptable. Still, my wild caught Devils require hard water to thrive as they are not as tolerant as their cousins that have been raised in tanks for generations. Without some buffering, my wild caught fish show definite signs of stress.

    BTW........ I only trust two or three forums on the web. Unless you know the people behind the screen names you can never be sure whose advice you are taking!
    bang on i bought a book 4 years ago which is slighltly diffrent to the one i bought late last year you can never trust web sites for specific breeds and take what u read for granted im sure if u looked at 30 or so pages on the midas im 100% sure at least 10 would all differ in thier opinions of keeping.obtaing infomation from 3rd party sourcesis a thing hobbiest do reguarly when building care pages for thier fish.my advice would be to read through all the forums not only would you spot the good from bad but you can relate to other peoples experiences
    tank size 4ft x 1ft x 1.5ft
    2 6"plecs
    2 7"green terrors
    1 6"jaguar
    2 6"albino oscar
    various feeders put in once a month for a treat for them and for my pleasure

  10. #10
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    most say equqlly or bigger when adding but i have found on many occasions that sum fish will not tolorate others and has rex said they will ignore anyone who isnt a threat if u want peace then smaller fish is the easiest way

    not 2 small of course
    tank size 4ft x 1ft x 1.5ft
    2 6"plecs
    2 7"green terrors
    1 6"jaguar
    2 6"albino oscar
    various feeders put in once a month for a treat for them and for my pleasure

  11. #11

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    Originally posted by chc
    I know it doesn't seem as if it should be true, especially when you can find seemingly endless sites and books that speak to the contrary, but most sources are amateurish at best. Many don't even differentiate between South and Central America.
    Devils are from Central America, and Rex speaks the truth (common or not!). Most CA cichlids come from hard alkaline water, and Devils (the various Devils that is) come from extremely hard and alkaline water. I would trust the specific water parameters from a fishes collection site before I trust any book.
    I you want sources to quote........... quote those of experts in the specific field of Neotropical cichlids. Look for Juan Migel's site (The Cichlid Room Companion) or anything from Loiselle or Konings. I think you'll find that Rex is right on the mark.
    I think it is key to note that while Devils are from hard, alkaline waters they are very tolerant of other conditions. Tangs and mbuna aren't as adaptable. Still, my wild caught Devils require hard water to thrive as they are not as tolerant as their cousins that have been raised in tanks for generations. Without some buffering, my wild caught fish show definite signs of stress.
    BTW........ I only trust two or three forums on the web. Unless you know the people behind the screen names you can never be sure whose advice you are taking!
    Well, I am just used to citing references to support my contentions as I frequent science debate forums often. Usually I'd refer only to peer reviewed journal articles but I know of none regarding this particular issue and while I have quite a few hard copy resources here at home in such a forum as this I often figure a quick set of on-line references are suitable, especially when every single one I find agrees with each other and my home sources on the topic at hand.

    I am quite sure it *can* be done I think the question more appropriately should be asked *should* it be done. Red Devil pH tolerances are quite different from those of african lake species. Are they more apt to put up with diverse conditions than the african prospective tankmates? Yes. Should they be put to that? I'd say no. But people will do what they will do I guess.

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    Simply put, most Red Devils and most of the more common Mbuna's are from stocks that have been captive for 10-15 or more years and both have a wide range of tolerances. Both will do excellent at a pH of 7.5-8.5 and in general they can make good tankmates. Your not going to be torturing a Red Devil by keeping him in a pH of 8.0.

    CHC, thanks for responding. I didn't the article on the Beani. I haven't been an ACA member for very long and that issue may have come out before I joined.

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    I agree completely with Rex and Chc.

    I use mbuna for targets in my tanks with large aggressive cichlids with no issues. The mbuna are fast enough and hide in the rock work that it doesn't seem to bother them. In all honesty the neotropicals for the most part leave them alone especially the small ones.

    Water parameters used to be more of an issue for me as previously stated commercially bred fish like many fish store mbuna haven't even heard of a rift lake.
    Department of redundancy department

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    In my experience you should not mix African and American, unless you want a whole lot of fighting in the tank. African and American have different body movements that each read differently i.e the African might be saying "hi" and the American reads it as "I'm gonna steal your mate"....FIGHT TIME!

    Not a great mix. Either have two tanks, or stick with one variety.

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    A slender 5" Mbuna isn't going to be saying much to a 13" Red Devil aside from, "Hello Sir! Good Day Sir!".

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