Seedy: All right, I guess I'll start out by introducing myself..For those who might not know me, my name is Colby Dixon and I've been keeping Cichlids for about 15 years now
Seedy: Between my wife and I we have 13 tanks up and running, many of them devoted to Tanganyikan Cichlids
Seedy: Lake Tanganyika is a very special place.  It is one of the largest and deepest lakes in the world
Seedy: to give one an idea of how big it is, if you were to overlay it on the State of California, it would stretch from LA almost to San Francisco
Seedy: The lake was formed by the spreading of the continental plates
Seedy: Because of the size of the lake, it tends to be a very stable place.
Seedy: This means that the Tanganyikan community tank also needs to be a very stable place
Seedy: In general, most "Tangs" like hard alkaline water
Seedy: Water temp is tropical and 78-80 F is an ideal temp to keep Tanganyikans at
Seedy: pH varies somewhat throughout the lake but is generally between 8.6 and 9
Seedy: What makes Tanganyika so interesting is that millions of years ago, a few generalized ancestors of our modern Cichlids made their way into Tanganyika and it has been a fairly isolated place (most due to it's geography) for evolution to run it's course
Seedy: The lake is literally teaming with Cichlids....In fact they are the dominant fishes in the lake
Seedy: The lake itself has extremely clear water and to the early naturalists resembled something that was once attached to an ocean.
Seedy: There are fresh water jelly fish, giant puffer fish and lots of various species of snails,clams and other invertebrates
Seedy: There are also catfish in the lake, many species of Synodontis that are endemic to the lake
Seedy: otters...electric cats...spiny eels....are you getting the picture?
Seedy: Many of the fishes found in Tanganyika are found no where else in the world, some of them are even specific to certain bays or even specific reefs!
Seedy: I would break the Cichlids of Tanganyika down into a number of groups:
Seedy: Feather fins: fish like Cyathopharynx furcifer
Seedy: Open water swimmers like Cyprichromis and Haplotaxodon
Seedy: The rock dwellers/caver spawners such as many of the Lamprologine and Julidochromis species
Seedy: The aufwach (algae) eaters like Tropheus and Petrochromis
Seedy: The shell dwellers like N. multifasciatus and Lamprologus occelatus (SP?)
Seedy: and the Sand sifters such as Xenotilapia
Seedy: There are also larger predators such as C. frontosa however I will be focusing this discussion on the smaller species that work well in a community set up

Seedy: To me, the Tanganyikan community tank is about finding fishes that live in specific niches and then recreating each niche in the tank to maximize the number of fishes and behaviors that one can keep in the same tank.  This means that knowing about the life cycles and styles of the fish is important in finding that perfect balance
Seedy: For example, Cyprichromis (commonly called "sardine cichlids") are open water swimmers that live in large schools and breed IN the water column....no substrate or cave needed!
Seedy: Cyps are mouth brooders and one of the most mild tempered Cichlids out there.
Seedy: They make an excellent "beginning species" for building a Tang community around.
Seedy: In the aquarium, they like to have lots of swimming room (6 foot tanks are suggested) and need a good sized group of themselves to feel "comfortable" and to act naturally...
Seedy: males and females can be kept in equal ratio
Seedy: The males are spectacularly colored while the females are usually a drab silver
Seedy: One of the nicest "surprises" I've had in fish keeping is in finding that Cyprichromis males of the same species can have completely different color variations!
Seedy: This means a person could have one species of Cyprichromis in there tank, yet have up to 3 completely differently colored males!
Seedy: I currently keep and breed Cyprichromis leptosoma "Sumbu" and have found that there are at least 2 color variants in my strain, some males have yellow tails while others have blue tails...
Seedy: The "blue tail" males have a nice blue "flash" to them, while the yellow tails of my strain have wonderful orchids, blacks and blues in the dorsal fin with a bright yellow tail
Seedy: Does anyone have any questions regarding Cyps?

DoctorV: how large?
Seedy: The "jumbo" species can get to 5-6 inches while the others max out about 4 inches
DoctorV: awkward Q, sorry.. should have asked how many for 125 gallon
Seedy: V, quite a few.  I would think a school of 20 would not be too much at all
DoctorV: for a community??? or single species
Seedy: community :)
Glaive: would that recommendation be for a jumbo variety or a normal variety?
Seedy: Perhaps less for the Jumbo's but easily 20++ for smaller species

Ben Burton Glass: How does the school size affect their comfortability int he tank?
Ben Burton Glass: I have 4 in a 55 that are growing and am wondering if I should add more if I can find them? C. leptosoma "Utinta'
Seedy: Good question Ben, the more you have, the more comfortable the Cyps will be
Seedy: Ben, my group of 20+ started out as 7 fish, I lost 4 of the originals over the years, but brought them from 3 to 20+ once they started breeding.
Seedy: 1 male and 2 females could work, but you will be missing out on the schooling behavior
Seedy: ...which IMO is one of the biggest draws for Tang Cichlids

Ben Burton Glass: How large before they start breeding? what age might be a better question
Seedy: the males will establish 3D territories in the water column, and the females actually catch the eggs as they drop them mid water-fertilization is typical for mouth brooders.  Mine didn't start breeding until they were over 3 inches
Seedy: even then, the females had a few "no goes' with holding before I had success

Seedy: The other good thing about a large school of Cyps is that it will act as a "cue" for the other cichlids in the community to know that it is "safe"...a large school of Cyps out swimming seams to indicate to other Tanganyikan Cichlids that there are no large predators around


Glaive: do you have a minimum recommended group size for exhibiting schooling behavior?
Seedy: I wouldn't want to start with less than 7 or so of them
Seedy: In the lake, these schools are in the 10s of thousands....perhaps even millions of individuals...they school and whirl about much like actual sardines!

TankDiveGirl: I'd like to get some P. nigripinnis at some point, but I'd like to know if they spend more time in the water column or if they're rock bound, and how many I could put in say, a 250 that will be eventually a Tang community?
TankDiveGirl: that will be with A. calvus and C. frontosa "Mpimbwe Blue"
Seedy: TDG, while I don't have any 1st hand experience with Paracyps, it is my understanding that they are more inclined to living around the rocks and are not so much an open water schooler as they behave more like a rock dwelling species...
Seedy: As for frontosa, one of their main staples in the wild is Cyprichromis....so I would imagine that Paracyps would be on the menu as well

Seedy: Altolamprologus species are great candidates for tank mates with Cyps
Seedy: ....although keep in mind that the Altolamps love nothing better than to eat another cichlids fry/eggs!
Seedy: That makes for a nice transition to the Alto's
TankDiveGirl: I don't have any plans for breeding "on purpose" so it would be fine with me
Seedy: I have to admit that A. calvus is probably my favorite Tanganyikan Cichlid.  These fish have some amazing adaptations to living in the lake.
TankDiveGirl: they're my favorite freshwater fish, hands down
Jeff F.: My alto comp is my favorite in the Tang tank
Seedy: both "comps" and calvus are cave spawners and prefer thin "slits" to breed in between rocks or in shells
Seedy: They are rather particular about their breeding sites and it needs to be large enough to house the female without being large enough for the males to enter

Ben Burton Glass: You might be just about to get into this, but what are the major differences between A. calvus and A compressiceps?
Seedy: Ben, very little to naked eye :)
Seedy: the main difference is that A. calvus lacks some of the rows of scales on the forehead that A. comp has
Seedy: calvus means "bald" ;)
Seedy: comps are a little deeper in body than the calvus who have a sharper angle of the forehead/face
Ben Burton Glass: Thanx for the clarification. I've been wondering about that for quite a while
Seedy: Comps are also known to get a little bigger than calvus....

Seedy: with that being said....they are both some of the slowest growing fish I have ever kept...
Seedy: I've been growing some fry out for about 3 years now (A. calvus "white" bred from wild parents) and they are only now getting to around 2 inches...
Seedy: When keeping Altolamps in the community tank, I wouldn't keep more than one male in any given tank....when they reach sexual maturity (about 3 inches) the males can become extremely aggressive towards their own kind....
Seedy: and ESPECIALLY protective of their fry....I've had one draw blood before...
Seedy: I would say that an adult trio could comfortable be housed in a decent sized 3 foot tank for life
Seedy: Say....3 foot 40 gallon "breeder" tank...

Glaive: With out skipping ahead, do you have a suggestion for a minimum community setting for a trio?
Seedy: Sure, Alex, I currently keep a 4 foot 75 gallon tank with 4 comps and they are extremely comfortable, there is room for quite a few other species, keeping mind that you don't want to have fishes competing (too much) for resources

TankDiveGirl: I have a 30 hex that I am going to have young calvus in very shortly... I know they grow slowly, but how soon will i have to separate them  out?
Seedy: TDG, how many individuals?
TankDiveGirl: well, i was thinking of buying 6 at about 1" each
TankDiveGirl: these would be whites
Seedy: Hex's are tough because they tend to be tall and lack bottom space...with enough rock cover and plenty of caves you should have a couple of years before you experience problems
TankDiveGirl: i intend to fully aqua scape

Seedy: That brings me to Altolamps rather unique behaviors....
Seedy: One of my favorite is their hunting style
Seedy: in the wild they feed primarily on cave spawning Cichlid fry...
Seedy: they are well adapted to getting into all the cracks and crevices with their extremely narrow bodies and mouths that open out creating a "suction" that draws in food...
Seedy: They are an ambush predator and they have a really unique hunting behavior where they hover a few inches above the substrate keeping their eyes in one place while rotating the rest of their body around the eye as if it was an axis they had to pivot on
Seedy: their strikes are insanely fast....
Seedy: One moment, there will be a fry on the substrate...the next just a "poof" of sand where they used to be....and a calvus slinking around the back of the tank with a full belly!
Seedy: One of the biggest criticisms I hear about this genus is that they are "shy"
Seedy: One thing that will help this is to have them in a community setting with Cyprichromis

Glaive: Have you experienced the crevice ambush technique? Where the sit in a crevice and hit food as it wanders past?
Seedy: absolutely glaive.
Seedy: When they are not hunting in the open, they will sit quietly in their favorite shell or crevice, just barely peeking out....
Glaive: Your thoughts on this ambush and crevice feeding style affecting their shy nature?
Seedy: yes glaive, I think that their reputation for being "shy" is in part due to their hunting style
TankDiveGirl: my white male used to do this -- he'd hide under his driftwood thing and wait, and when a guppy would swim past, he'd whack it

Seedy: Another interesting aspect of the Altolamps is their defense mechanism...
Seedy: When threatened they tend to flare out their sides presenting their thick, rough side scales
Seedy: I have seen other fish attack their sides until their lips were shredded from the scales...the calvus don't seem to care!

Jeff F.: If you have a Alto dominant tank, how do you enjoy them if they're hiding all the time?
Seedy: Jeff, very quietly!
Glaive: aquascaping Jeff
Seedy: That's why I like to keep them with other cichlids that tend to be less reclusive
Glaive: Idea/interjection
Glaive: If you know that they like crevices try creating a formation that is targeted for them but in a better line of sight for people watching the tank
Seedy: Great suggestion glaive

TankDiveGirl: can you keep them with Paracyps?
Seedy: yes
Seedy: For the most part, you can keep with just about anything that wont fit in their mouth...or fit them in their mouth!
TankDiveGirl: thats what I did with my last ones

Glaive: could you mix Cyps and Paracyps due to the difference in preferred habitat?
Seedy: Glaive, yes

Ben Burton Glass: is there a chance of hybridization with Cyps and Paracyps?
Seedy: I don't think so Ben, their breeding habits are a bit different, Paracyps like to breed up against vertical surfaces where Cyps prefer open water
Ben Burton Glass: I noticed the same with my shell dwellers, and P pulcher (Kribensis) they're shy fish and like to hide, But if there are other fish swimming around they are active members of the community

Seedy: BTW....calvus and comps CAN and DO hybridize
Seedy: I do not recommend keeping different species of Altolamps together...

Jeff F.: I mixed a Tropheus duboisi(juvenile) with my alto and have been warned as such. What signs should I look for before I move it?
Seedy: Personally, I think Tropheus are not suited to the Tang community.  they have some rather specific diet requirements and are really "boisterous" and aggressive
Seedy: Altolamps really need a high protein diet where as Tropheus need a "greener" diet to avoid "bloat"
Seedy: Tropheus tend to do best when kept in large groups of their own
Jeff F.: I may have done the wrong thing, but I feed the tang tank a spirulina diet with an aqueon flake to try and make up.
Seedy: Jeff, you'll be OK for a while....and it may even work in the long run (I've seen stranger things) but I wouldn't say that it is a "good" mix

Glaive: It is important for people to learn the differences between animal protein and plant protein. People constantly use the word protein with out thinking about the differences.
Glaive: I learned a very valuable lesson from Tom quite some time ago
Glaive: Feeding a sensitive fish raw zucchini  goes a very long way to avoiding animal protein caused bloat

TankDiveGirl: can you keep Altolamps and regular lamps together?
TankDiveGirl: or will they also interbreed?
Seedy: yes TDG, for the most part, that is a good mix
Ben Burton Glass: TDG I've got some small A. calvus in my 55 along with small Julies, N. brevis and my 4 Cyps and a bunch of Kuhlii Loaches, oh yeah and two clowns as well... but they're all juvenile size and under except on of the Cyps they're happy campers
TankDiveGirl: cool ben!  thanks!
Seedy: Nice mix Ben
Ben Burton Glass: well the brevis are full grown actually
Ben Burton Glass: all the others are juvenile size

 [Watch Alex fumble the hand off.]

Seedy: Glaive, why don't you cover the Julidochromis genus for everyone?
Glaive: Well I guess I can introduce my fish keeping self
Glaive: My Name is Alex Calder and I have kept Julidochromis dickfeldi for roughly 9 years
Glaive: while my experience with the genus is limited to this one species they are all similar in behavior
Glaive: Julies as they are affectionately known are a rock/cave dwelling fish of Tanganyika
Glaive: The exhibit some of the most interesting parenting behavior of any fish I have seen and they are an excellent choice for a beginner fish
Glaive: They are moderately aggressive, by Cichlid standards, in a community setting.
Glaive: However amongst their own species and Genera they are pure evil
Glaive: While I feel that the experienced hobbyist can keep a pair in as small as a 20 gallon long I do not believe there is a tank size that could host two pairs
Glaive: the best tactic for forming a pair is to purchase 6-8 fish and let them form a pair themselves, then promptly remove the others before Armageddon begins
Glaive: this can be done in a species only or community setting
Glaive: In my own case I purchase an existing pair with the female at about 2 inches and the male at roughly 1.5-1.75 inches

Glaive: you know what, let me shift away from a lecture, ask me a question and I'll do my best to answer

Seedy: How can one tell when a pair is forming?
Glaive: First sign they are cohabiting in a fairly peaceful manner, they will challenge each other some but it usually stops at the "tail curl" stage as opposed to going to the full strike S pose
Glaive: the tail curl is a hovering action with just a hint of tail bending

MisanthropeKitty: When you finish with seedy's question... talk some about aquascaping :D
Glaive: aquascaping
Seedy: I will say that aquascaping is one of the keys to Tanganyikan communities....meeting the needs of each individual species' "niche" is key.
Glaive: They do best with sand, any medium to fine grain sand
Glaive: they need a "cave" structure
Seedy: Fine sand is good for pretty much all of the Tangs...
MisanthropeKitty: Can this cave be created with multiple rocks or is it best to stick with one rock?
Glaive: one rock, multiple rocks it does not matter
Glaive: in my case the "cave" is a pile of three lava rock chunks
Glaive: In order to maintain the pair a structure is required, once they attach to a specific structure you can do almost anything to them with out fear of breaking the pair bond
Glaive: many people report moving the pair to a new tank and death ensuing
Glaive: this is because they did not move the "cave" "pile of rocks"  " structure" with the fish

tchill93x: And you can never have more than a pair of Julies together?
Glaive: tchill, I do not know what tank size it would take to accomplish two pairs, I know that from personal experience a 55 will not do
Glaive: I have heard horror stories from people with tanks as large as 220 gallons
Ben Burton Glass: I've got one full grown transcriptus in my 125 (6feet) that patrols the entire tank. he's eliminated the other Julies that were in there, or I had to remove in far of elimination
Ben Burton Glass: if he/she was bigger, it would be the dominant fish


Glaive: anyone interested in some poor breeding pictures?


Glaive: this was a failed spawn in a different location than their typical pile
Glaive: however it afforded me the ability to see as I otherwise would not have

TankDiveGirl: i can have a pair of Julies in my mixed lamp tank, yes?
TankDiveGirl: with my calvus?
Glaive: yes, one pair.
TankDiveGirl: yea, i know they're mean ;)
TankDiveGirl: are they as mean as brichardi?
Glaive: to their own kind I would say more so
Glaive: they do not form quite the death squad
Glaive: but they do form a family
Glaive: Julie versus Julie is likely one of the ugliest wars that can occur and death is always the result

tchill93x: what is their adult size?
Glaive: ornatus and transcriptus ~3 inches for the female and a touch smaller for the male
Glaive: dickfeldi 4 inches for the female
Glaive: regani and maleri 5+ inches

TankDiveGirl: i know you keep dickfeldi, but what do you think of regani?
Glaive: if you have the tank size for regani I say go ahead
TankDiveGirl: i ask because regani are the only ones i have any experience with, and in that case not a whole lot
Glaive: if you go with a 125 community the regani should work... though they may get a little rough with shellies
Glaive: a smaller species might be a better option in that case

TankDiveGirl: do you have to feed them anything special?
Glaive: julies are omnivores a standard mix works great with the occasional live brine shrimp treat for your own entertainment
Glaive: no special needs for feeding fry either, the parents do that for you
Glaive: the males specifically
Glaive: from behavior I have seen in the aquarium I believe them to feed on critters in algal mats
Seedy: Have you found that you have to feed smaller foods to Julies because of their mouth size?
Glaive: not really but I never got into larger pellets
Glaive: I have seen a 1/2 inch Julie attack and run away with a 1 inch square flake
Glaive: in the community setting avoiding large foods may be wise
Glaive: then again anything an Altolamprologus will eat a Julie will try to take away to the bottom

tchill93x: So Julies are good parents?  What happens when the fry get bigger?
Glaive: there are a series of stages (yes excellent parents)
Glaive: before the young begin showing aggression to each other they are welcome in the cave
Glaive: that is the first stage and it is tiered too
Glaive: newly hatched and very young fry are not allowed out of the cave
Glaive: at a certain point, before moving out they are allowed to explore just out side the cave
Glaive: parents will chase stragglers back in
Glaive: once they get the boot outside the cave hey are still expected to stay fairly close
Glaive: the parents do continue to protect them
Glaive: while there is often displaying amongst the juveniles there is rarely real aggression so long as thieris a pair in charge
Glaive: only when a "child" hits adulthood is there any problems

MisanthropeKitty: how long are juveniles allowed to live with the parents before real issues start?
Glaive: in the cave, the "territory" or the tank?
MisanthropeKitty: the tank
Glaive: adulthood in the case of dickfeldi seems to be 3 inches roughly
Glaive: when the child is large enough to be a threat to the parent I would guess

tchill93x: Are they slow growers too?
Glaive: not really
Glaive: they go from hatched to 3/4-1 inch in 4-6 weeks for me
Glaive: it may take as long as a year to hit 3 inches depending on diet

Glaive: In all honesty Julies are easy, they are the "just add water" Tang
Glaive: the behavior is fun and the group dynamic is great

tchill93x: So they can stay together for nearly a year before things turn to Armageddon?
Glaive: yes and even then they just kill the offender
Glaive: in all honesty you have about a year on the kids before they are killed in cold blood, by then you can usually ditch them off to a lfs for credit

DoctorV: I am keeping tang and haps together is there a cross breeding concern?
Seedy: None
Seedy: Haps are mouth brooders and most of your Tangs are either very specific mouth brooders or cave spawners
Seedy: Coming from separate lakes, there is also quite a bit of evolution between the Malawi flock and the Tanganyika flock

DoctorV: if i were to keep them in one large tank, can i go with groups or do i have to stick to male only
Glaive: groups that do not overlap niches would be fine

DoctorV: Can you suggest a 125 gallon stocking idea for Tang only
Seedy: I'd say, a big group of Cyprichromis, one pair of feather fins, one trio of Altolamps, a pair of Julies, a colony of shellies
Seedy: .....and a Tanganyikan spiny eel!
Ben Burton Glass: Throw some big fronts in there and they'll eat everything!!