crazyfishlady: How 'bout some info about Rex while we wait. What do you have running these days, Rex?

Rex Karr: Not much currently. Just a couple 125's, a 55, 30, 20, and a pair of 10's. That will have to change shortly though.

crazyfishlady: Why will that be changing soon?

Rex Karr: I have almost a dozen Umbies which are growing very nice, I'll need a big tank soon.

crazyfishlady: Very cool.

fish speaker: Speaking of Umbies, I need to start a water change for my female ;)

crazyfishlady: Alex, are you going to review "the rules" or is this to be an informal chat?

Glaive: What style of chat are you aiming for Rex?

Rex Karr: I'll give a bit of info, ask for questions, bit of info, questions, and we'll discuss freely

crazyfishlady: We're 15 minutes into the time... should be a good time to start...

Glaive: Okay Rex I would say go ahead whenever you feel ready

Rex Karr: Alright, let's begin. I began keeping cichlids around 10 years ago in a 55g that I was given as a gift. My father had kept Mbuna when I was young and thins is what I started with. The pictures of Central Americans in my Axelrod's Atlas proved to tempting though and eventually I fell into keeping larger species.

Rex Karr: I quickly learned that a 55g was far to small and graduated to a 125g. Before long I learned that even a 6 ft aquarium was on the small side for these fish and thats when I began keeping larger communities of cichlids in considerably larger aquariums.

Rex Karr: And for tonight's discussion we will focus on Central American cichlids of the genera Paratheraps and Vieja

Rex Karr: First a few words on classification.

Rex Karr: Taxonomy is uncertain, but for tonight we will follow current thinking. Vieja was created in 1969 with maculicauda as the type species and should hold argentea, heterospila, regani, and ufermanni. All of which are restricted to the Atlantic slope of south Mexico and Guatemala except for maculicauda which is found all the way into Panama.

Rex Karr: All the way to Rio Chagres actually

Rex Karr: Paratheraps was created in 1983 for the new species breidorhi. Its believed that bifasciatus, fenestratus, guttulatus, hartwegi, melanurus, synspilus, zonatus, and the undescribed sp. “Coatzacoalcos” all belong to this group. With 2 exceptions all species are found on the eastern slope of south Mexico, Guatemala, and Belize. However guttulatus and zonatus are native to the western slope of south Mexico and El Salvador.

Rex Karr: Paratheraps is still a bit more of a mess than Vieja. Synspilus has quite a variance in coloration through out its range and its thought by some to actually a junior synonym of melanurus! Guttulatus is said to be a lost species in the hobby, although fish are sold under this name in the US. It's also possible that guttulatus could be a senior synonym of zonatus.

Rex Karr: Questions?

crazyfishlady: Why are Paratheraps & Vieja separate?

crazyfishlady: Is there some characteristic that makes a clear differentiation between the 2?

Rex Karr: Apparently there are enough small differences to warrant a separation. The longitudinal bar found on the side of all Paratheraps is one such example.

crazyfishlady: Is that why ufermanni is lumped in Vieja?

Rex Karr: Personally, I feel that of all the Vieja, its maculicauda that is most like Paratheraps physically. But of course this is the type species for Vieja!

Rex Karr: Ufermanni, is actually extremely similar to heterospila

Rex Karr: Ufermanni being from clear rivers and heterospila from still water.

Rex Karr: Of all the Vieja I think these 2 are most similar in appearance.

Rex Karr: Any more questions?

crazyfishlady: I can see the similarity between argentea & regani, but I haven't kept heterospila.

Jeff F.: Any comparison pictures for the archives?

crazyfishlady: The barring on my ufermanni makes it seem much different.

crazyfishlady: In fact, I was not aware that it was no longer ex-Cichlasoma.

crazyfishlady: But....taxonomy is not something I keep up on. :p

Rex Karr: Have you also kept heterospila? Both species share a very similar profile, coloration, black blotching, and even barring

Rex Karr: Unfortunately I'm not much of a photographer, but I would recommend www.cichlidae.com as a source to compare pictures of these fish.

crazyfishlady: I've only seen pictures of adult heterospila. Interesting info. Thanks!

Glaive: http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery.php?genus=Vieja

Glaive: http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery.php?genus=Paratheraps

Glaive: The two genera have beautiful coloring.

Rex Karr: Most definitely

Glaive: I can instantly understand the attraction, I was only mildly familiar with three or four of the species

Rex Karr: With the exception of xanthic forms of Amphilophus I think they are the most colorful Centrals

Rex Karr: All of these species can be excellent aquarium fish. Vieja in general are much calmer than the Paratheraps types which, some are which are downright nasty. Heterospila being the most peaceful of the large Central Americans I have ever kept and zonatus being of the most aggressive. In a large aquarium even the most aggressive will coexist with other cichlids well. Intraspecific aggression being much more hostile than most interspecific aggression.

Rex Karr: Large aquarium refers to something 8 ft or more

Rex Karr: Questions?

Rex Karr: continuing

Rex Karr: Although hybrids don't seem to be an issue with the Vieja, this is a tremendous problem among the Paratheraps group. Particularly with synspilus which is the only species (name) that is very common. In my opinion a real synspilus is quite rare to come by unless bought from a good trusted source

Jeff F.: You've showed new entities to strive for Rex. VERY beautiful.

Rex Karr: Regarding their diet, I'm not aware that Vieja and Paratheraps are specialized feeders of any sort and I think they do best on a mixed diet of spirulina pellets, leafy vegetables, and fresh shrimp, etc. Once when I ran out of pellets I fed my adult zonatus small quantities of fresh carrots and lean steak for a few days. No harm done and he seemed to love it.

Rex Karr: At this time, we'll continue on informally. Any questions?

crazyfishlady: Were the carrots raw or cooked?

Rex Karr: Raw carrots

crazyfishlady: Could you hear them crunching?

Rex Karr: No, I cut small pieces for him

crazyfishlady: OK. I will resist throwing whole carrots into my boyfriend's tanks.

Rex Karr: There's an interesting article on the collection of real guttulatus and even macracanthus

DogWalker: Do any of these species make good solitary 'wet pets' for tanks 4' - 6'; Or is 8'+ community really the only recommendable way to keep them?

Rex Karr: Dogwalker, most would make excellent 'wet pets'. I keep my zonatus alone due to his aggression.

Glaive: I really liked the appearance of all of the species, is there one that would live a complete and happy life as a pair in a 75 gallon tank or would you consider a 125 as a minimum?

Rex Karr: Heterospila would surely be happy as a pair in a 75g.

Rex Karr: Fenestratus and hartwegi also, if care was taken to provide cover for the female

Glaive: Would dividers be in order or just cover that the male can not get into or knock all over?

crazyfishlady: Do ufermanni stay small, or are they just slow growers? I've had mine for a couple years & it's only about 8-9" (I wouldn't hesitate to keep it in a 75, Glaive)

Glaive: I really like their appearance and the behavior would be an interesting change from my tangs

fish speaker: my fenes are too similar in size for me to keep undivided in a small tank, but they get along fine in the 525

Rex Karr: A divider would probably be best, but maybe not necessary depending on the situation. I've kept many pairs of Fenestratus in 125g with no dividers.

Rex Karr: But they can be rough on each other

fish speaker: your fenestratus must be more friendly than mine 8s

Rex Karr: I have never kept ufermanni for a long period, but I believe 10" would be max.

crazyfishlady: I have found my less-aggressive Paratheraps & Vieja to be quite shy. Have you found that to be the case Rex? I only bring it up because I'm not sure how they would do outside of a community tank.

Glaive: Then I would almost make myself go with a 125 which would have the added benefit of water quality maintenance

crazyfishlady: I retract part of that. My argentea are very aggressive to each other, but not in my presence. They hide from me. Breidohri seem to be quite outgoing, but not too incredibly tough on each other.....yet. Largest is only about 8"

Rex Karr: Crazy, I've actually never kept the less aggressive species in a solitary situation. But I can imagine that some of them might be rather timid. Heterospila and ufermanni in particular. I don't think any Paratheraps would have the issue.

crazyfishlady: I have ufermanni & synspilus in community tanks, and they are still quite shy.

Glaive: Rex, In the past you have suggested mbuna as targets for Midas, would this be possible for these species? ie rock pile of play fish

Rex Karr: Alex, as a warning, Fenestratus may still require a divider in a 125g at times. Its a smaller species but probably 2nd most aggressive.

Glaive: Fair weather warning for sure

Jcushing: if you were going to do that, could you use neets instead to at least keep it CA?

Jcushing: to alex's statement

Rex Karr: Crazy, I've never found synspilus to be shy. Even when kept with aggressive fish. I currently have 12 synspilus and 8 Umbies in a 125g at approx. 3-6".

crazyfishlady: Maybe it's the numbers of them. I have a single synspilus in a quasi-regional-biotope tank with a pair of JDs, some Thorichthys pasionis, Amphilophus robertsoni & some Chuco.

Rex Karr: Alex, mbuna would definitely be good for that intended purpose. I've never kept neets, but I would assume they would work. Convicts would be great. I've been planning something like this for my 125g with my zonatus.

Rex Karr: Yes, thats a good thought. I almost always kept large numbers of any species. Especially when young.

Glaive: This gives me a lot of food for thought

crazyfishlady: I have not had any problems with Vieja/Paratheraps & smaller fish.

Glaive: would I try for a convict pair or just two random convicts?

Rex Karr: Has anyone kept and adult zonatus?

crazyfishlady: I currently have a Honduran Red Point pair in with some argentea & breidorhi that have raised 6 of their fry to sub-adults

Rex Karr: In a 125? I would try for a dozen

Rex Karr: Strength in numbers, lol

crazyfishlady: I would try for a more colorful Cryptoheros/Amatitlania. They exist. :p

Rex Karr: What species are you guys keeping? Please list them if you don't mind.

Glaive: I am still limited to Julies, I think you will find everyone else's lists much more interesting

fish speaker: Regani, argentea, fenestratus, breidohri...may be forgetting some

Rex Karr: Alex, someday you will have a real fish :)

crazyfishlady: To list all would be too long. Vieja/Paratheraps only:

tchill93x: mbuna, shellies

Rex Karr: yes

Glaive: Perhaps people should try what they deem their more interesting fish

fish speaker: yep, those were just my Vieja/Paratheraps

crazyfishlady: Whoops. :red: argentea, breidohri, synspilus, & ufermanni

crazyfishlady: David, you forgot hartwegi

fish speaker: yes, I did! :red:

DogWalker: By 'targets' are we talking about fry/juvie -disposal (ie: is it the intent that the targets be caught?) 'Cause anyone keeping mbuna has a constant supply of those to get rid of...

crazyfishlady: Rex, the only one I know of keeping adult zonatus is Mojo.

crazyfishlady: DW, not so much feeders, as just other fish to "spread the love" to.

Rex Karr: Dogwalker, that would be determined by the aquarium size, exact species, and aquarium setup

crazyfishlady: I haven't kept mbuna, but I'd think they'd make even better targets for Vieja than Amphilophus....since they'd be able to share a more herbivorous diet.

Rex Karr: Fish speaker, are your fenestratus adults? Any pictures?

fish speaker: Not sure of the size, but I'm sure they'd be considered adults. I'm sure I have some somewhere...

crazyfishlady: Rex, I was going to ask what species of Paratheraps & Vieja you've kept, but realized it might be easier to ask whether there are any you haven't kept?

fish speaker: Found one: http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk83/dvdsimpson/5254.jpg

crazyfishlady: That is spawning dress - for all the non-Rex chatters. They actually turn from bright red to gray when spawning.

Rex Karr: I've never had guttulatus (has anyone), sp, 'Coatzacoalcos', or breidohri. I was mistaken in thinking that breidohri were unattractive until recently.

crazyfishlady: Yes. You are mistaken. :p

Rex Karr: I love Amphilophus nourissati

crazyfishlady: Nope. Never had guttulatus or even seen 'Coatzacoalcos'.

crazyfishlady: My understanding about guttulatus is that it may be just as difficult to find a pure one as you said it is with synspilus. Do you feel that is the case?

Rex Karr: A few years ago I bought a dozen "blue" fenestratus. Beautiful fish. Never seen anything quite like them. Then half turned orange/pink! Must have been from Lago Catemaco

Rex Karr: My understanding is that none have ever been brought into the hobby and that the fish being sold as guttulatus are impostors.

fish speaker: Here's a non-breeding dress shot of the female, as she beats up on a couple of targets this past spring: http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk83/dvdsimpson/stress.jpg

crazyfishlady: Interesting. Hybrid impostors? or misidentified Paratheraps of other species?

Rex Karr: Misidentified

Glaive: I seem to recall some discussion about this at crc

Glaive: misidentification was what was said over there

Rex Karr: This is the reason I posted the article earlier showing what Kullander identified as real guttulatus

crazyfishlady: Hartwegi?

crazyfishlady: I mean the fish commonly mis-identified as guttulatus. Too bad those pics are out of water.

Glaive: zonatus, I believe

Rex Karr: Yes, I think some are misidentified as hartwegi. But that may be an intentional thing. Guttulatus is only found on the pacific slope, and hartwegi on the Atlantic.

Glaive: I had to go back and find the thread I was thinking of

Rex Karr: yes, zonatus is the only other species from the pacific

Rex Karr: and like i mention earlier, these may even be synonyms.

Rex Karr: http://images.arofanatics.com/members/rexk/paratherapszonatum/image02.jpg

Rex Karr: the only good picture I've ever taken, and its been a while

Jcushing: is it just me or does that link not work

Rex Karr: and it has a filter tube in the back, lol

crazyfishlady: Very interesting chat! I need to get going. Rex, you need to present on riverine cichlids. :D

Rex Karr: maybe next time, crazy

Jcushing: pretty fish

Glaive: Rex, what was your favorite Para/Vieja centered tank and what were the inhabitants?

Glaive: I am also curious if you enjoyed your large community setups or your more individual tanks more?

Rex Karr: I use to have a 125g with a pair of Fenestratus F0 Lago Catemaco, Tamasopoensis F0, Altifrons F0, a scarlet dragon and a few large Synodontis eupterus. Probably my favorite setup ever.

Glaive: That sounds like a lot of activity, how was aggression?

Rex Karr: Not bad, the fenes and toma's were always breeding, it was great.

Glaive: How was the fry survival rate?

Rex Karr: I much prefer a large community aquarium. The larger the better.

Rex Karr: They would survive a couple weeks after free swimming.

Glaive: Were you more of a let nature take it's course person or did you try to raise some?

Rex Karr: I had black sand, an insane amount of African rose wood and smooth round stones, rather dim lighting. The tank looked very dark but the fish really stuck out and glowed.

Glaive: Do they respond better to dimmer lighting?

Rex Karr: I raised a few, but it was a low priority at the time for me.

Glaive: Any interest in going collecting some day?

Rex Karr: I think they would have done fine in brighter lighting, but that tank just kind of fell together the way it was and the dim lighting really suited it.

Glaive: I rather like the description of it myself

Rex Karr: Absolutely

Rex Karr: Hopefully someday it will be a regular thing for me.

Glaive: Everyone drive for Rex's we'll caravan from there down through Mexico ;)

Rex Karr: I'm quite good with a cast net and I have a 1970 Buick Electra, so I think this will work out, lol

Glaive: I have a couple invites for Mexico and once one gets that far the rest is just a little further

Glaive: Are you interested in collecting for personal use or is it also in the interest of understanding the fish and their habitat/education?

Jcushing: i just like the collection pics...

Glaive: I really lack the space for lots of fish, but the idea of traveling the world and taking pictures and writing about the experiences would be right down my own alley

Rex Karr: I've always been extremely interested in collecting. I'd love to bring back a few species that we don't have in the hobby. I think a bit of time with a snorkel would teach me a lot about some of the species I'm most interested in.

(the lazy bum editor will get to the pictures later. ;)