StructureGuy: I started in this fish keeping hobby in 1977. I started pretty much like everyone else, putting large fish like Oscars in small tanks and then watching them try to turn around when they grew up. After a couple years, the owner of a mom & pop LFS told me to knock it off and start paying more attention to tank size and compatibility. So I figured I'd concentrate on cramming small fish like mbuna in my 3 huge 30 gallon tanks. The learning curve was longer before the Internet.

StructureGuy: After many years of almost nothing but mbuna, I bought several bags of Victorians at a club auction because the auctioneer claimed they were cool (um, maybe 1993?). I got hooked on Victorians, but no one could tell me much of anything about them. So I combed the UseNet newsgroups for info. This was the predecessor to forums, but unmoderated newsgroups didn't allow posting images and flame wars were the norm.

StructureGuy: I initially created my web site because I'm an engineer, and many of us suffer from the irrational need to do stuff just to see if we can figure it out. Roadrunner gave me 5 MB of free web space. So I borrowed the company digicam and used the free web space to post fish pictures so people could help me ID my Victorians. The website kinda grew into more than I had intended. But my web site is not there so that I can sell fish.

StructureGuy: I now have seven main tanks (not counting 10 to 20 gallon breeder tanks.)
40 gallon long with ten Pundamilia nyererei around 1 inch long growing out
46 bow front with 2M:4F Haplochromis sp. 'Kyoga Flameback' (breeding) plus Ps. saulosi
55 gallon with 3M:9F Haplochromis sp. 'Ruby Green' (Breeding)
55 gallon with 1M:2F Pundamilia sp. Red Flank' (breeding) plus Astatotilapia calliptera
55 gallon with 1M:5F Paralabidochromis chromogynos (refuses to breed) plus a few mbuna
75 gallon with twenty (too y (this was lost)

Chromedome: Is your website still active?

Tchill93x: www.african-cichlid.com - Kevin's website

StructureGuy: Other than scientific papers, there are only two books on Victorian cichlids:
Lake Victoria Rock Cichlids by Ole Seehausen (Verduijn Cichlids 304 pages)
Lake Victoria Basin Cichlids by Mark Phillip Smith (Barrons, 96 pages)

StructureGuy: Here is what I do with my Victorians. I usually buy 10 juveniles or maybe 20 fry of a single species. I grow them out in a bare-bottom 10 to 20 gallon tank. I aim to keep the two best looking males in roughly a 1M:3F ratio, although that ratio really isn't nearly as important as it is with mbuna. I either sell the extra males at a club auction or I throw them into the 180 gallon tank just in case something happens to my other males and I need them later.

StructureGuy: Many times a 2 species tank actually works better than a single specie tank for both breeding and aggression management. So the second species is either mbuna or a very different looking Victorian of a similar size and temperament.

StructureGuy: Everyone thinks that keeping Victorians is always a conservation thing, but to be honest, my motivation is a bit less altruistic. If they are an endangered species, then I'd like to have the opportunity to enjoy them before they are gone. I raise them, observe them, write about them, photograph them, breed them, but I rarely ever keep any fry for myself. I distribute them (usually free) to anyone willing to come to my house.

StructureGuy: On some rare occasions, I do ship them to someone if I know that they are an experienced hobbyist and especially if they are a Victorian enthusiast and I have a chance for a payback trade in the future.

StructureGuy: The best place to get Victorians is from a known source. Laif DeMason (of Pseudotropheus demasoni fame) owns the fish farm Old World Exotic Fish, Inc. south of Miami. You can't order direct from them, but the non-chain LFS near me can and does order from Old World. When they get some vics in I often get an email. It always helps to get to know the LFS manager. It might be possible for you to special order a colony of vics through your LFS.

StructureGuy: Beware, this is not cheap.

StructureGuy: Aquabid is a great place to buy mis-identified and hybrid Victorians. Although, if you know the person behind the screen name or if they post a picture of the exact fish for sale, it can be an okay place to shop. The same can be said of online fish breeders. They sell vics, but often don't have any idea what they are selling so they make up a name (aka blue neon, tangerine nyererei, etc).

StructureGuy: If I buy anything online, then I have to see a picture of the fish I'm buying or it's parents. I frequently see my pictures being used to sell fish so be sure it's not an 'example' picture.

StructureGuy: Getting to know breeders within a few hours drive can lead to a big improvement in price, quality and selection since you can see what you are buying and find out where they obtained their stock. By far the best solution is to develop a network of hobbyists like yourself to work out trades.

StructureGuy: Everyone claims that they want to be sure to buy 'pure' Victorians, but they are really just fooling themselves. Almost all of them are tank raised these days and few of them can be traced back to the wild so how can anyone be assured of purity? The only thing you have to go by is; 'do they look right' and later; Do they produce consistent looking offspring? At least to some extent almost every purchase is a risk. If you try to get your Victorians identified on the Internet, there's no guarantee of a consensus since there's a variety of opinions as to what the 'pure' species should look like.

Chromedome: Not to mention the naturally variable appearance of a given individual depending on mood.

StructureGuy: As I said previously, I like to buy a lot of juveniles at one time. It's pretty risky trying to combine purchases from different sources to obtain a larger colony of one species. Remember too, that Victoria is a huge lake and there are a lot of location variants of many species.

StructureGuy: (Chromedome beat me to it!)

StructureGuy: You can often find Haplochromis sp. #44 'thick skin' (sold as Haplochromis obliquidens) at the chain stores, even Walmart/Petsmart etc. This is a beautiful fish that is extremely aggressive. It also wants to breed with every female in sight, regardless of species. A friend had one crossbreed with an Aulonocara. Of course, that why the species #44 and it's many hybrids are so plentiful in the hobby.

StructureGuy: It is a terrible beginner fish, yet it is often the first Victorian that newbies buy.

 

RustyNut: But it's so pretty!

StructureGuy: You can also find Astatotilapia latifasciata (sold as Zebra obliquidens) at the chain stores. This is a beautiful fish that is reasonably mild-mannered and has a nicely colored female as well. It is a near perfect Victorian beginner fish.

MisanthropeKitty: Beautiful fish Kevin.

StructureGuy: Other than those two, you might have to look around a bit to find Paralabidochromis sp. 'rock kribensis'

StructureGuy: Or Haplochromis sp. 'Flameback' (Be aware most vics called Flameback are mis-identified.)

StructureGuy: Or Haplochromis sp 'Ruby Green'

StructureGuy: The availability of Victorian species tends to come and go. So if you see one you like and don't buy it, it might be 4 to 6 years before it makes the rounds again. Right now: Haplochromis sp. 'Kyoga Flameback', Pundamilia nyererei, Paralabidochromis chromogynos and Haplochromis sp. 'Redfin Piebald' are available from many breeders but I'll bet they become hard to find in a few years.

StructureGuy: To my mind the best setup is a two species 55 to 75 gallon tank with a sand substrate and lots of limestone rocks piled high for hiding. Put some crushed coral in a canister filter for high PH buffering. Most hobbyists recommend a temperature of 78º to 82º but I believe that something around 72º to 76º is better. I had a colony of 2M:4F Haplochromis sp. 'Dayglows' that bred for 3 years then stopped breeding for over a year. A heater broke and the temperature went down to 62º and then I found that 3 out of the 4 females were holding.

StructureGuy: Most Victorians will breed easily and often their first three years if they like your setup. If you have a nice size colony and they aren't breeding, then just change things. Move them to a different tank, or try changing the cohabitants. I've had single species tanks where they didn't breed, but when I added that second species they bred like crazy.

RustyNut: competition?

DoctorV: again, second species that they won't hybridize, right?

StructureGuy: They usually breed on top of flat rocks or they move the sand out of the way and breed under a rock on the glass. They do the typical mouth brooder circle thing. Female lays the egg, picks it up in her mouth, and tickles the males egg spots to get the male to spray the sperm.

StructureGuy: Then hold the eggs/fry for 18 to 21 days. Either remove the holding female to another tank or strip her. Brood size depends upon the size and age of the female. My Hap ruby greens give me around 25 to 30 but the full grown As. latifasciata were spitting around 75.

StructureGuy: I don't know why a two species tank often works out better.

StructureGuy: I think it has something to do with the females not constantly running for their lives.

StructureGuy: There are a few piscivores (Lipochromis sp. 'Matumbi Hunter', Harpagochromis sp 'Golden Duck') and pure algae grazers (Neochromis rufocauldalis) in the hobby, but most Victorians that are available are insectivores/omnivores that grow to only 3' to 6' long.

StructureGuy: A lot of people buy Victorians without being able to visually identify them before they buy. Then they post pictures in the ID section of the forum. But many male vics are identifiable only when they are in full breeding dress. It's often a pure guessing game on pictures of males in muted coloration and not really worth the effort.

StructureGuy: The chances of getting the ID correct on a pale colored Victorian is pretty slim. Here is a prime example. ALL the fish on this page are male Hap. Dayglows at various ages and moods. http://african-cichlid.com/DayglowColors.htm The shear variety of colors is so enormous that it would be impossible for most anyone to positively identify this fish based upon many of the pictures on this page.

StructureGuy: Those are two males I had that lived around 7 or 8 years.

RustyNut: that is quite a variety

Pam Chin: wow!

StructureGuy: Now you know why I'm so wishy-washy about vic ID's on the forum some times.

Chromedome: I've avoided those discussions religiously.

StructureGuy: Except for Astatotilapia latifasciata and Paralabidochromis sp. 'rock kribensis' plus a few piebalds, the females are a dull silver/gray or brown/yellow http://african-cichlid.com/Females.htm . That's one reason not to mix them, since you may never be able to separate them again.

StructureGuy: Keeping Victorians is really very easy. A young decent size colony in a decent size tank is all you need. Then find some way to curb the non-stop horniness of the dominant male by preoccupying him with fish he doesn't want to breed with (another male or another species)

RustyNut: hence 2M;3F

StructureGuy: Yeah. That's the idea.

StructureGuy: or better 2M:6F. But there is a benefit to that second male

StructureGuy: Except Astatotilapia nubila that will kill everything eventually.

RustyNut: A. nubila will kill its females?

StructureGuy: Yeah. Mine did. I only had 1M:3F in a 40 and he harassed them to death in maybe 3 months

StructureGuy: Most vics are ON AVERAGE less aggressive than mbuna but Hap #44 and nubila are 2 exceptions. At least they were for me.

StructureGuy: Some of the algae grazers are pretty mean too (Neochromis rufocauldalis.)

DogWalker: Apart from A. latifasciata, what are some of the most 'manageable' vics?

RustyNut: Paralabidochromis sp. Rock Kribensis

StructureGuy: Paralabidochromis sp. "Rock Kribensis"

RustyNut: lol

StructureGuy: The 2 finger typer loses again

StructureGuy: But great minds think alike.

RustyNut: Also Paralabidochromis chromogynos

StructureGuy: Haplochromis sp. "ruby green" are pretty mild even if they are all over the place at 100 mph.

Tchill93x: You said you write about the vics...besides the KB article, do you have more on your website? Or do you write for associations?

StructureGuy: I write for the local club newsletter mostly.

Chromedome: I had Hap. nubila back in '82, the ID was done by Loiselle, but that was 25+ years ago. Spawned once, then he trashed her. Did Rock Kribs in '93, and Flamebacks in '99. Had "Blue Firefins" sit in a 55 and laugh at me for two years.

tchill93x: What is local for you?

StructureGuy: Or just put my experiences on my web site.

StructureGuy: Local = Columbus, Ohio

DogWalker: On the conservation thing, I thought I read somewhere about a registry of some sort that vic keepers could enlist with as an effort to keep track of captive bred sources of vic stock. You heard anything of the sort? If so, your impressions?

StructureGuy: I've never done "Blue Firefins"

StructureGuy: Yea. The ACA has a list going.

Jeff F.: Kevin, is there ANY way of us trying to find "pure" Vics?

StructureGuy: The Haplochromis Association in France has a list as well.

StructureGuy: My Mbipia mbipi are pure since they are F1, I got from GAS last year.

StructureGuy: I don't think the conservation thing at ACA is as well organized as the French effort.

StructureGuy: ACA has a list but the French list species with fry available for distribution

goingfishing: Where would one find Paralabidochromis sp. "rock kribensis", Paralabidochromis chromogynos, Haplochromis sp. "ruby green" and A. latifasciata? And have you had any luck in mail ordering?

StructureGuy: Of course that gets into the whole "what is conservation" topic.

DogWalker: Whether there is any hope of these stocks ever serving to re-populate or restore extinct species in the wild is perhaps a pipe-dream, but at least it would be a way to conserve the species in a more or less authentic state for hobbyists....

StructureGuy: I gave away around 200 ruby green fry last week to local hobbyists.

StructureGuy: A local small chain has Rock Kribs available frequently around here.

Chromedome: There was a Vic registration project at Michigan State University (not U of M) some years ago. Don't know if it's still active, though.

goingfishing: My local pets store only have mixed Africans and the sites I have been to have the same.

StructureGuy: Paralabidochromis sp. "rock kribensis", Paralabidochromis chromogynos, Haplochromis sp. "ruby green" and A. latifasciata were all available for sale out of rooms at the OCA Extravaganza this past weekend.

Pam Chin: goingfishing, where do you live?

goingfishing: Most of them being cross breed.

goingfishing: Louisiana

Pam Chin: goingfishing, ahhhhh!

goingfishing: I guess i live in the wrong state. Lol (Pam was “ahhhhing” the cross breed.)

StructureGuy: The annual ACA convention usually has a good selection of lots of cichlids

StructureGuy: Is there a local fish club near you in Louisiana?

goingfishing: Never heard of any.

StructureGuy: I've tried hard to generate local vic interest with only limited success, myself.

Chromedome: I try to attend events like OCA and ACA because 1) if the person is wrong about what fish they have, there are about 20 experts to correct them, and b) you can actually see fish before buying, and they come from many different parts of the country.

Jeff F.: My grow out tank of Kribs is A1 and waiting to show! (I want pictures Jeff.)

goingfishing: If at anytime anyone has vics for sale e-mail me

StructureGuy: Is that it, folks. I'm a morning person on Eastern time so bed time is approaching.

Chromedome: Different regions will have different species that are "cycling" through their clubs.

tchill93x: Thanks so Much Kevin - it was a great chat!

Chromedome: Very informative, Kev.

DoctorV: Yes it was

goingfishing: Kevin hope to catch it early next time.

Pam Chin: Thanks Kevin, I really enjoyed it!

Jeff F.: Kevin, Thank you so much

StructureGuy: See ya around the forums and hopefully at the ACA convention in nearby Cincinnati next summer.