As with the transcript I have done and those to come most of the fun banter is removed. If you would like to see what chat is really like you should join us. It always makes for a good entertaining and informative time, at least on chat nights. I am picking a little but it was pretty funny. Thank you crazyfishlady, cichgirl and fish speaker.

crazyfishlady: I know it's a little early, but what are we going to say about South Americans?

DoctorV: why don't you try to cover some critical differences between African and SA set ups?

cichgirl: No, seriously .. should we find out which fish are of interest first? It's kind of a big broad subject

crazyfishlady: Yes. Even the set up question depends on what group of SA fish you're talking about

crazyfishlady: So... I keep a pretty wide variety of SAs, but nothing that requires special water chemistry.

Lil_hoyt: What type of SAs do you have?

crazyfishlady: My SAs might require special water chemistry to breed, but they are perfectly healthy (while not breeding), in my tap water .....The pH is 7.6 & is very hard

crazyfishlady: temporalis, severums, diadema, spectabilis, Geo 'Bahia red', Guianacara, and Krobia.....and balzanii

fish speaker: My water is very very soft, so pH tends to end up dropping very low...which has allowed me to have some successful spawns with some picky SAs

fish speaker: low, as in sub-5

cichgirl: My water is pretty soft, pH can run between 6.8 and 7. Right now I have only Oscars for SAs

fish speaker: If I try to type a list of my SAs, chat may be over before I'm finished. :P

crazyfishlady: As far as the setup goes.....I always use sand. The earth eaters especially, seem to need to be able to move sand around, just to stay healthy.

crazyfishlady: I use a lot of terracotta pots & driftwood for decoration......Some fake plants. Real plants have been futile.

cichgirl: You know, I used sand up until I started keeping Oscars. WAY too much trouble with them.

DoctorV: so, could it be a general assessment that for simple keeping of the SA the wide variety of water conditions will work but for breeding one wants more specific conditions?

crazyfishlady: Again, good question, but really depends on the fish.

crazyfishlady: Is there a species you're interested in?

DoctorV: no, it is a general interest

fish speaker: I would say that my experience with plants has been similar to crazyfishlady: 's...except that Crenicichla tend to like plants, and are not too tough on them.

cichgirl: I've had zero luck with plants and SA -- except for Bolivian rams. They actually did okay with amazon sword and hornwort

crazyfishlady: Cool. FS could speak more to water requirements for breeding than I could. As I've stated: My SA cichlids stay very healthy as long as my hard, neutral water is clean, but they don't spawn for me.

crazyfishlady: Go ahead Alex.

cichgirl: go ahead Alex

Glaive: this goes to each of you: Would you attribute plant difficulties to fish destroying them or other reasons?

cichgirl: Total fish destruction

cichgirl: They wouldn't last for a week with any of my south or centrals because they just tore them up. The hornwort fared best but still just got dragged all over the place and shredded

cichgirl: I potted them so they didn't dig them up - but it didn't stop the leaf tugging. The hornwort floated so it wasn't as big of a deal.

crazyfishlady: For me both: Many of these fish dig a lot, and try to rearrange their environments. They usually do this by pulling on leaves. I see that a lot more than I see them trying to eat the plants. I'm sure plenty of it is my own black thumb too. I always hesitate to put enough substrate in my tanks to really allow plants to thrive.....I'd rather be able to keep my tanks really clean.

Glaive: For fish speaker: Does your Crenicichla and plant success come from plants rooted in the substrate or attached to decorations?

fish speaker: Some of each. The pikes I have don't do lots of digging, and they tend to leave the plants alone...

Lil_hoyt: When I had SAs they would pick up a plant and move to the other side. Then back again.

crazyfishlady: Yes, they do like to move things around.

fish speaker: Is algae considered a plant?

cichgirl: YES! lol

Glaive: lol FS thank you all for your answers it gives me a lot of help with future ideas

fish speaker: Planning on picking up some pikes, Glaive: ?

Glaive: I was interested in pikes the first time I saw cich1's Crenicichla sp. Venezuela

crazyfishlady: Hey, FS, what kind of surfaces have your SAs used for spawning?

fish speaker: Driftwood seems to be the surface of choice, so far.

fish speaker: ...except that my Hoplarchus psittacus spawned on an artificial background.

crazyfishlady: Out in the open, or do they use caves?

cichgirl: So, I've never kept pikes. How aggressive do they really get while spawning?

fish speaker: I've only had one group of pikes spawn so far...

fish speaker: They were fairly similar to CAs: tank mates pinned in corners like crown molding until I relocated them

fish speaker: these were Crenicichla menezesi, a spangled pike...

fish speaker: Fairly small...about 6-8" max size.

cichgirl: How are they with tank mates in a sufficient tank?

fish speaker: Depends on the fish. The menezesi have worked well with many tank mates...

fish speaker: For the larger lugubris group pikes, I tend to go with large fish...I have a pair of "Atabapo fire" pikes that are in with a male jag, and it used to work fine...he's getting too big and aggressive for them now.

fish speaker: Most pikes, in my opinion, have a bad rep when it comes to aggression

crazyfishlady: I think that's the case with lots of SA cichlids

cichgirl: Ditto

fish speaker: they may be extremely intolerant of their own kind, but they tend to play well with others

crazyfishlady: Most of mine seem to do better in "community" tanks, than in species tanks.

crazyfishlady: Lots of conspecific aggression, but play well with others.

crazyfishlady: Go for it, Alex.;)

Glaive: this goes to each of you again, would you mind suggesting a nice SA community setup including a recommended tank size?

cichgirl: Dream tank? Or a good start-up?

Glaive: Good startup, aim for moderate experience on the hobbyist then dream ;)

fish speaker: depends on the fish that are of interest to you...

crazyfishlady: For a smaller tank: I have a 40Long with a small group of Guianacara, and a group (that should be smaller) of Krobia. They get along well & look good together.

cichgirl: Good call.

fish speaker: I have a similar Guianacara/Krobia setup (or used to)

crazyfishlady: In a 240, I have....just about everything else: a couple severums, a temporalis, a diadema, some Geos, and some spectabilis. They play nice, and it's a good mix of colors......and they like to hang out i different areas of the tank.

crazyfishlady: Oops. 2 psittacus too. Not sure why I keep forgetting those...

crazyfishlady: It's a fun tank. Big fish.

fish speaker: Yes...sounds something like my 210...fun tank (although mine is overstocked :( )

cichgirl: I would probably recommend a smaller start, like rams and angels in a 46

fish speaker: use them as feeders later? :evil:

cichgirl: No waste that way.

crazyfishlady: I like to put fish (like the Guianacara & Krobia) together though.....A Geo type fish that stays near the substrate & something that stays more mid-water

Glaive: when seedy talked about Tanganyika an important point was how specialized the fish are and avoiding over lapping niches... When considering a SA community how important is this?

crazyfishlady: Hmmm. I think it's pretty different, they might compete for some of the same caves....but it's not like trying to keep 4 different species of shell dweller in a tank with one bed of shells

cichgirl: go ahead val

DoctorV: does the footprint of the tank matters as much as for the mbuna, or is it the gallonage?

fish speaker: Footprint is very important

cichgirl: definitely footprint

DoctorV: thanks

fish speaker: ...although water volume is important in terms of water quality, too

crazyfishlady: Agreed. Gallonage helps though too - extremely messy fish.

Lil_hoyt: Bigger the better

DoctorV: here goes my 92 corner daydream LOL

cichgirl: there's always fish like Oscars though that need to move around and for that reason don't really do well in smaller tanks and territorial fish

crazyfishlady: Stocking a SA tank is different from stocking a mbuna tank....from what I've read anyway

Glaive: cfl, I am guessing there is no overstocking to spread aggression ;)

crazyfishlady: I tend to disagree with some of the common theories about stocking an SA tank though

cichgirl: No way, didn't work for me

cichgirl: But I didn't overcrowd solely SAs

crazyfishlady: I think, with the right mix of only moderately aggressive cichlids, it can help a bit.

fish speaker: Hmm... my 210 (overstocked) is fairly peaceful...but a pain to keep up the water quality

crazyfishlady: I don't think there's any way to have more than one SA fish in a tank & truly give it as much territory as it would like to defend

crazyfishlady: I also tend to think that cichlids make the best dithers for other cichlids.

crazyfishlady: I have never had anything, other than another species of Cichlid, really work to get a shy species to come out of hiding.

cichgirl: Unless you have one of Rex's setups

DoctorV: what's Rex's setup?

crazyfishlady: I think, even if I had one of Rex's setups, I'd manage to overstock it.:red:

cichgirl: HUGE tanks. I don't know what he has now but I used to drool

cichgirl: You could overstock a 10 acre pond!

crazyfishlady: Dr V - A "Rex setup" would be 500+ gallon tanks

crazyfishlady: I could, CG. Easily.

DoctorV: :)

Lil_hoyt: I went to a customers house one day and noticed they had a 55 with 3 10" Oscars in a 55 with about 20 feeder goldfish. anyways after about a hour there I had them head to my LFS and getting a larger tank a 90 and using the 55 for the feeders. and they did just that. It's a shame how people will force these babies in to cramped tanks

cichgirl: Lil_hoyt: , we see that a lot. People just don't know any better

Lil_hoyt: I wanted them to get a 125 but they couldn't go that big at the time

CrunchyEarthMommy: Can I ask something as a total newbie?

crazyfishlady: Go for it CEM

CrunchyEarthMommy: okay...keep in mind I am just asking, and not intending to tick anyone off...so please take the question for what it is

crazyfishlady: No prob

CrunchyEarthMommy: you all are talking about overstocking your tanks for a variance of reasons...

CrunchyEarthMommy: and from the moment I came on forum, it has been pounded into my head not to overstock my tank, having it compared to life in a closet...

crazyfishlady: Yes. When I say overstocking, I am talking about manageable bioload & manageable aggression....knowing that I may need to move a fish....and that I have the ability to do that. MTS

CrunchyEarthMommy: My question is, with as much as people here on forum advocate keeping the different species pure...

CrunchyEarthMommy: why then would you overstock their tanks?

cichgirl: Putting fish in a tank too small for it isn't what we mean by overstocking

CrunchyEarthMommy: keeping in mind, I am NOT pointing fingers...I am just asking

cichgirl: Especially for newbies we like to have people learn how to care for their fish and learn as much as they can first...

cichgirl: before trying to add more fish than territory in order to keep aggression down...

cichgirl: Reason being, SA's can be pretty brutal and overstocking might end up a horrifying experience if you aren't careful enough to make an educated guess

CrunchyEarthMommy: okay...what then are you referring to, when it comes to overstocking?

crazyfishlady: My overstocking doesn't effect the purity of my fish. I don't think SAs interbreed as readily as mbuna...or even some of the smaller CAs, like Cryptoheros

CrunchyEarthMommy: Okay...if someone could precisely define what is meant by "overstocking" in the context of this chat, would probably be helpful for me

crazyfishlady: I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say my tank is overstocked, I mean that the fish probably don't have as much territory to themselves, as would be ideal.....and I might have to work a little harder than your average aquarist is willing to do to keep my water quality up.

cichgirl: Exactly what cfl said

crazyfishlady: I think an "advanced aquarist" breaks a lot of the "rules" you'll see on message boards about keeping a species of fish.

cichgirl: This is why I only have Oscars for SAs right now (they live with CAs)-- they constantly invade territories and lumber around... Making it difficult to keep them with fish that are more defensive.

CrunchyEarthMommy: so, it's not really "overstocking", so much as having a higher number of fish than would be ideal, but due to experience, are capable of maintaining the fish in a healthy environment, even though they aren't in an ideal situation, in regards to territory

cichgirl: right

cichgirl: If you can't keep up on water quality, you cannot overstock without killing your fish

CrunchyEarthMommy: gotcha, that makes perfect sense

crazyfishlady: For example, I might keep a fish in a 40 long or a 55, that will get way too big for that tank one day.....but I know that I have other larger tanks to move them to....the average new poster, or someone who really only wants one tank....needs to follow the "rules" from the start.

CrunchyEarthMommy: so, that must be what I have read in reference on other sites, about "overstocking" to keep aggression down

cichgirl: Yes, but you really need a larger tank to make it work.

fish speaker: "controlled crowding" may be a better term

CrunchyEarthMommy: definitely agree with that term, because for someone less experienced, it could be very confusing, and potentially fatal for their tanks

cichgirl: That's why we're so vocal about new hobbyists overstocking because that's what their lfs told them to do

crazyfishlady: Unless there are any other specific questions, I think I'm gonna sign off. I hope this has at least been interesting for people.....

cichgirl: cfl, as always you are a pleasure!

crazyfishlady: Awww. Thanks, CG.

CrunchyEarthMommy: ty for your answer, CFL! =o)

fish speaker: I think it's time for me to head out, too. Enjoyed it all!

CrunchyEarthMommy: and for everyone's answers! I appreciate the clarity

Glaive: thank you to both of you

CrunchyEarthMommy: have a great rest of the night CFL and fish speaker

CrunchyEarthMommy: so, here's a crazy question then, sort of along the same lines

CrunchyEarthMommy: in my fish, I have found them to be indeed aggressive, but I also find them to be very interactive with one another, as well as with all of us...wouldn't increasing tank numbers that are intended to reduce aggression, also reduces interaction, and comical antics, potentially?

cichgirl: Yes, it would... Also

cichgirl: Feeding gets psychotic, there will be fighting and there very well could be fish teaming up to "off" another, weaker fish in order to cut down on competition

cichgirl: Although, an overstocked tank is a trip to walk up to because they're always trying to be the first fish to get fed

cichgirl: I don't personally like to overstock only because I like a calmer tank.

CrunchyEarthMommy: so, even for the experienced aquarist, it is 6 to 1, half a dozen to another, as to preference of intentional overstocking, it would seem

cichgirl: absolutely correct.

Glaive: CG, would you say it comes down to vigilance and having a "safe house"?

cichgirl: Absolutely. If you are willing to overstock, you should be able to have a divider and/or adequate space to relocate whomever needs it

CrunchyEarthMommy: I think I'll stick with my two girls. LOL!!!

cichgirl: You'd be surprised, your two girls might be sweet and nice now, but if you kept the male in the tank they might have become terrors...

cichgirl: The male would have been a problem too.

CrunchyEarthMommy: ha...I already have experienced that...we had what we thought were three females, and a pair was starting to establish themselves...so, although I didn't want to, we found a new home for him

cichgirl: Anyone have any questions? Jump in!

CrunchyEarthMommy: when he was in the tank, it was kind of odd tho...his "mate" would go after the smaller one, and when she did that, he would go after his "mate"...now, perhaps had they been successful in fertilizing eggs, he would have become aggressive toward the third wheel, I imagine

Glaive: CEM You made a responsible decision many do not make.

cichgirl: They both would have

CrunchyEarthMommy: well, knowing that DH would have killed me if we had a fish explosion, MAY have played a role in that choice. =oP

Glaive: well CG you never did cover you dream tank, that I saw, care to take us for a ride?

cichgirl: My dream tank would actually be a combination CA & SA.

CrunchyEarthMommy: ooh, dream tank...do tell!

cichgirl: 600 gallons....

cichgirl: Why not?

CrunchyEarthMommy: holy macaroni, that would be a huge tank

cichgirl: I would go with an aggressive bunch, Probably keeping devils, midas, Oscars to swim around and act as targets...

cichgirl: A couple Dempsey - I always have those --

cichgirl: You know, aside from the "let's throw a bunch of fish together in a 600"... I have another idea

cichgirl: I'd like to have a tank large enough to house a few adult buttikoferi with some of the more aggressive fish already named. I know they're African but I've always been intrigued by them.

cichgirl: I've never had a tank big enough to house a butti with anything! lol

cichgirl: I tried to keep my butti with Oscars and as soon as that guy/gal hit 7" it became a psychotic killer.

Glaive: Could you not do buttis in a 500-600 gallon tank with CA tank mates?

cichgirl: You sure could

cichgirl: That's what I meant I would like to do

cichgirl: Their temperament is similar but buttis are solid fish

cichgirl: In a tank that big, I guess I have a hard time telling what I would put in it. I've never felt that free

Glaive: would you aim for an all male tank or would you want pairs?

cichgirl: In a tank that big, I'd probably have a few pairs mixed in!

cichgirl: I guess I should have aimed lower and more reasonably

cichgirl: I actually really want to get into the viejas...

Glaive: any specific vieja?

MisanthropeKitty: I've always liked Vieja argentea

cichgirl: Not sure yet maybe synspila

cichgirl: bifasciata maybe?

cichgirl: argentea would be cool. There's just so many and I haven't kept any of them!

MisanthropeKitty: I love the look of them

cichgirl: Me too. They have serious personality as well.

cichgirl: After my Oscars finally go their way, that is...

Glaive: just to drive home a point, how old are your Oscars now?

cichgirl: 8 & 10 are the oldest

MisanthropeKitty: the expected life span for an Oscar is ~15 years correct?

cichgirl: I've heard of them living to 20