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Cichlids: A Knowledge Base .: Chat Logs .: 10/11/07 Aulonocara jacobfreibergi - Malawi Butterflies with Pam Chin

10/11/07 Aulonocara jacobfreibergi - Malawi Butterflies with Pam Chin

Pam Chin:           First off I just want to say Thank you to why_spyder for setting this up and letting me talk about one of my favorite species from the Aulonocara Group. The tips I will share with you, can be applied with any species of Aulonocara. First I will have some text for you to ready, then we will look at some photos and then the floor will be open for questions.

Pam Chin:          

Aulonocara jacobfreibergi

Malawi Butterflies

By Pam Chin

Pam Chin:           One of the most difficult aspects of the genus Aulonocara is picking which one to work with. Inside the 4 basic groups: stuartgranti, jacobfreibergi, Chitande type and the sand dwellers, there is a plethora to pick from. Since the onset of my experiences with this group of cichlids from Lake Malawi, I have always been drawn to the jacobfreibergi group, fondly referred to in the hobby as "Jakes." I know it is because of their great color and beautiful finnage, just one look and it is easy to understand why they are called "Malawi Butterflies."<BR>...

Pam Chin:           The genus Aulonocara is undoubtedly one of the most peaceful groups in Lake Malawi and they usually mind their own business. Some have even referred to them as "wimpy" and rightly so, they are not the best choice for a community tank with lots of hyperactive mbuna. And, they don't do well with the big predator-type haps either; it can be just too stressful having them cruising above. It is their loud colors that make us want to add them to our show tanks, but a bit of research is necessary to make sure you pick the right tank-mates. I think the Jakes have a little more attitude than the rest of peacocks, and this is another reason why I lean towards this group.

Pam Chin:           In the wild jacobfreibergi occupy the rocky habitat where they prefer to reside inside caves. These caves may be large in which an entire group may live, or they might be in overhangs or larger crevices within the rocks. Since they are primarily found in the northern and southern parts of the lake itself, it is believed that they have been around a long time, thus an older species. This could explain why their sensory head pores are not as advanced as in other Aulonocara species.

Pam Chin:           In our aquariums their peaceful behavior makes them a joy to work with. However, you should never house more than one Aulonocara species per tank. Not only are the males hard to tell apart, it is nearly impossible to identify females or juvenile species from one another. They will readily cross breed and this is frowned upon in the hobby, it is important that we keep the species clean, as well as the geographical variants.

Pam Chin:           Most peacocks are easy to breed in our tanks, and that includes the Jake types. They are maternal mouth brooders and breed best harem style where you have many females with two or three males. I prefer to buy 12 - 18 juveniles from a reliable breeder and watch them grow out. With this quantity I will hopefully end up with 8 or 10 females. They are sexually mature around 12 - 14 months old, and so it isn't long before you will see your first dominate male come forward. You can keep them in a community setting during this grow out period or raise them up in a species only tank. However, when you are ready to breed them you will want to house them alone.

Pam Chin:           It is best to have a spare tank available and when you are able to identify your first male, move him and this allows the next male to come forward. Juvenile males in a group situation are going to hold the female coloration as long as they can to avoid confrontation and to keep from getting trashed. You can continue pulling the dominate males until it appears that the remaining fish are all females. This allows you to pick your best males for breeding; the first male that comes forward may not necessarily be your best. This is also a good time to look at your females and make sure that they all look like they are suppose to, if one doesn't then you need to remove it from your group.

Pam Chin:           I like to put my groups in 60-gallon flats, where I use sponge and box filters. I prefer bare bottom tanks; I think they are much easier to keep clean. You can add sand or gravel if you want to, but you don't need it to be successful. You'll still need to provide some cover, and I have found that PVC bundles work well, and a larger flowerpot on its side will make a nice cave. In this type of set up it is easy to observe your females, and tell if anyone is holding, or getting beat up.

Pam Chin:           I like to keep the pH around 8.5 or higher, temperature around 76 - 78 degrees F, and I am a firm believer in frequent and massive water changes. I prefer to feed them a basic cichlid pellet, once or twice a day, no more than they can eat in about a minute. One of the biggest mistakes that we make is feeding our fish too much. Aulonocara in our aquariums are giants compared to their counterparts in the lake, and obese specimens may have difficulties reproducing. It is really best to keep them on the lean side, fat peacocks get lethargic; too lazy to spawn and it can shorten their life span.

Pam Chin:           In a group situation the dominant male will try to attract a female to his favorite place in the tank where the spawning will take place. Don't discount your subdominant males in the group, I often observe them also spawning. Females typically hold the eggs for 21 - 28 days, and they usually retreat into the cover of the tank during this period. It is important to observe your fish, and it is usually when you are feeding that you will notice who is not coming out to eat, and further examination may reveal that a female is holding.

Pam Chin:           At this point, you have several options, you can remove the female and strip her of eggs at any time you are sure the breeding process is complete and the eggs have been properly fertilized.

Pam Chin:           Option - 1 - At day 1 - 14, you can place the eggs in a tumbler and hatch them out yourself.

Pam Chin:           Option - 2 - You can let your females hold for 14 days or so then strip, at this stage the heads and tails have popped out, and tumbling is not required. You can put them in a clean fry tank, and wait while they continue to develop.

Pam Chin:           Option - 3 - You can let your female hold to term about 21 - 28 days post spawn, and let her spit on her own. The fry will be free swimming at this stage and ready to take foods. It is best to remove the female from the breeding tank and put her in a holding basket, livebearer basket, etc., the young are prone to be eaten if she spits in the breeding tank with the rest of the group.

Pam Chin:           It really depends on how hard you want to work at it and how desperate you are to obtain fry. Young females often swallow the eggs a few days post spawn, give them a chance, it just takes a few times before they figure out the whole process.

Pam Chin:           Remember there is no parental care, and it is possible when the female spits, she will also eat the fry if she is not removed. Likewise, if she spits in the adult tank, it is more than likely that all the occupants of the tank will partake in the eating of the fry. Stripping versus holding has always been a debate. The main argument is: which is worse, the stress from holding or the stress from being stripped. You have to decide what will work best for you.

SabrinaD:            I had a Lemon Jake female spit 60 on one of her later clutches

Pam Chin:           Fry care is easily accomplished by feeding freshly hatched baby brine shrimp once they begin to free swim, and when they get a little larger they are able to eat finely ground flake foods. The more you change your water the faster they will grow, and it doesn't take long to get them up to a sellable size. Just remember; never ever mix Aulonocara fry, as you will never be able to tell them apart.

ROCK!:  made it, but not sure how much input Iíll have on the subject.

Pam Chin:           If you like a cichlid with lots of color, and beautiful fins, then consider giving the Jakes a try. Their peaceful nature, and ease in breeding have made them very popular in the hobby for years. I know that I will always have a few around!

Pam Chin:           References:

Chin, Gary - Personal communication

Konings, Ad - Malawi Butterflies - The Aulonocara jacobfreibergi Complex. Cichlid News, October, 1997

Konings, Ad - Malawi Cichlid In Their Natural Habitat, 3rd Edition, 2001. Cichlid Press, El Paso, Tx

Konings, Ad - Enjoying Cichlids, 2nd Edition, 2002. Cichlid Press, El Paso, Tx

Konings, Ad - Back To Nature Guide To Malawi Cichlids, 2003. Cichlid Press, El Paso, Tx

Aimara: clap

Glaive: That you for the references Pam, I will be sure to include them in the transcript

mikeynashy:      thumbs up

AmayaOkami:   wow that was well put

why_spyder:     Very good. :)

mikeynashy:      clap

PhishNFilly:       Pam my link to the actual picture of the fish did not show up, does anybody have it handy?

Eddie789:            wow I just learned a lot!

Pam Chin:           Thanks, Thanks!! Now please go to this gallery and look at the Aulonocara and also there are some shots of stripping and tumblers and we can also talk more about that.

Rich B.: Excellent, thank you Pam

Pam Chin: 

PhishNFilly:       woot!

mikeynashy:      tanks in your lounge area

buntbarsch:        I am a strict opponent of stripping and surprised that you support it. Do you not believe in the females teaching the fry?

AmayaOkami:   very pretty fish

DogWalker:        Was starting to think my Otter Point might actually be a line-bred (Eureka Red) until I saw yours - good to see the original can indeed have that much color

PhishNFilly:       wonderful assortment of pics, I just love this fish

claudius002:       We allowed to talk? HAHA

Pam Chin:           Hi Claudius.

why_spyder:     Hey Claudius

buntbarsch:        Hi Claudius.

claudius002:       Hey Pam, and everyone else.

claudius002:       lol. That sounded bad....

Glaive: we are in the question and answer portion, BB has the first question out

Pam Chin:           BB, I will get to your question in just a moment, once everyone gets back from the pictures.

PhishNFilly:       Claudius welcome back, you missed a bit but you can see it all in the log in a week or so when Alex edits and posts to the chat log thread.

Rich B.: Pam, your Aulonocara jacobfreibergi 'tanzania orange', and 'cape kaiser' are very interesting are those something that is still collected?

sepratbill:           I'll queue up a question: I've got three young Otter Points. One of them has a bit darker barring, but none of their fin shapes look distinctly male (yet?). Is there a sure-fire way to sex juvies/young adults without venting?

Pam Chin:           Rich no I haven't seen them on any lists lately

Pam Chin:           Bill the only accurate way to sex cichlids is to look at their jungle nookies.

claudius002:       Thanks Phish. I tried taking Pics to get help with ID but my tank is cloudy still. I need more POWER. I stirred up my cichlid mix and it stays cloudy for a day or so.

mikeynashy:      bb's question?

Pam Chin:           Okay BB asked a question earlier, so I hope everyone is back...

Pam Chin:           BB said ... I am a strict opponent of stripping and surprised that you support it. do you not believe that the females teach the fry?

sepratbill:           they're certainly slow growers

Pam Chin:           I am not a proponent of stripping, but I do think it is a valuable tool that you can use to get fry from species that are at risk. But with that said you have to practice it is a definite technique, and so I walk that fence. Also I do not believe that females teach their young, especially in Malawi. There is rarely any parental care after releasing. It may be debatable in other species.

Pam Chin:           Also stripping is hard work, itís not like yippee lets strip everything we can once they are holding. It has to be something special in my fish house.

buntbarsch:        Thanks Pam :)

Pam Chin:           BB, thank you it was a great question!

Pam Chin:           Okay any other questions? Regarding Aulonocara?? Then we can move on to anything cichlid!

Glaive: Do you have a personal favorite Jake location?

mikeynashy:      would u say a 60 l would be the min tank for Aulonocara?

Rich B.: Sure, your pictures is that all of the species you keep or are there many more?

Pam Chin:           Glaive on comment you made earlier that is quite interesting is that the egg size varies among Aulonocara; some are huge, while others are incredibly small.

Pam Chin:           Glaive, my favorite has to be Otter Point!

Pam Chin:           Mikey, depends on how good you are, but yeah, that would be good for a species only tank.

DogWalker:        I'll queue one up also: What is your view on all-male Aulonocara tanks, how to make them work, how many species, how many fish...

Eddie789:            What species of tank mates can Aulonocara have?

Pam Chin:           Rich B, oh that is just the Aulonocara, we keep a lot of other stuff from Malawi and Tanganyika

Pam Chin:           Dog, the keep to a male peacock tank, is different species, if you have 3 or 4 of the same species you are not going to have as much color. So no more than 2 of each species, and absolutely no females, because they will beat each other up over a female.

Rich B.: Yes, I was asking that about the Aul. species. That's great

Pam Chin:           Eddie, thatís a tough one for me. I think they should be kept in Species only tanks.

Aimara:                what would you recommend for the smallest number in a single species group size?

Pam Chin:           Aimara, 12

Aimara:                m:f?

Pam Chin:           I hope everyone can see this; it is how my typical Aulonocara species only tanks are set up.

Pam Chin: 

Pam Chin:           Aimara, I don't dwell on ratios when I have at least 12 - 18 fish.

Aimara:                thank you

Pam Chin:           Aimara, and I think trio's and quads are really too small

Pam Chin:           You need multiple males, if you don't have multiple males then your male is going to beat up your females, with multiple males, the will take the aggression out on each other.

Glaive: Pretend for just a moment that you are Alex and you like to aim for a community style tank with 3-4 species that are not going to cross. Would you have any suggestions involving Aulonocara species that may fit one of the choices and thrive?

Pam Chin:           Glaive, okay, I would do yellow labs, and Afra, a peacock and mellow hap like Copadichromis azureus

Pam Chin:           glaive, 4 - 6 of each

Glaive: thank you Pam

Glaive: in a 6 group, 2 males 4 females?

Pam Chin:           note that there were no zebra's = no Malawi cows! lol

Glaive: rofl

why_spyder:     :D

Pam Chin:           glaive, don't dwell on ratio's!!!

Glaive: okay so 6 and whatever ends up ends up

Pam Chin:           Glaive, the best tanks are when the fish grow up together, so buy them young and let them grow up together and they will learn to tolerate each other regardless of their sex. Providing you are picking compatible fish

Glaive: I guess I would state that my A. comp quad of 3 males and one female has a very healthy female :D (and per Pam's suggestion my tang tank grew up from juveniles)

SabrinaD:            I had lemon Jake and one of the males that grew up in the tank ended up killing his father, but I had them with yellow labs, rusties and m. cyaneorhabdos

Glaive: good info Pam, someone else's turn :)

Pam Chin:           Sabrina lemon jakes can be mean, probably the most aggressive one out there, Lwanda too

why_spyderette:             Pam have you ever done any line breeding to bring out certain colors or characteristics in peacocks? Or do you prefer to keep them as close to wild looking as possible?

SabrinaD:            they did pretty well in that mix

Eddie789:            what kind of Aulonocara would you recommend for a beginner?

Pam Chin:           spyderette, I prefer to keep them as close to the wild type as I can. I am not in favor of line breeding Aulonocara; itís getting scary out there, with all the crap coming out of Asia.

ROCK!:  I never liked line breeding; I like my fish as pure as they can be.

Pam Chin:           Eddie, I would say start with any of the stuartgranti types, there is a bunch itís a big group. Mdoka/Ngara is a really popular one.

DogWalker:        My w/c Lwanda was definitely the roughest peacock I've kept, and probably the most stunning looking

AmayaOkami:   never a fan either

why_spyder:     Along with 'ette's questions - how do you choose what males are 'the best' for their wild-type look? Do you use something for reference or?

ROCK!:  I tend to be wild fish over anything else. I don't care about cost

Pam Chin:           dog, I like Lwanda so much, I named my dog Lwanda!!

PhishNFilly:       Pam you mentioned you do not use a substrate but if I were to start a 75 which would you prefer for them sand or gravel?

DogWalker:        A dog named Lwanda - fitting.

Pam Chin:           spyder, yes if you get in to peacocks then you will learn the subtle differences between them, and usually a location site is famous for some marking they have. And then you can see what they really do look like, and thatís what I strive for.

Pam Chin:           Julia, definitely sand, they like to dig in it.

buntbarsch:        Got to go but not without saying "Thank You" to one of my favorite people in the cichlid hobby.

buntbarsch:        Pam, you are amazing............

Pam Chin:           BB love you more!!!!

PhishNFilly:       :)

why_spyderette:             to get rid of any confusion, I was asking about line breeding not hybridizing peacocks

Glaive: Thanks for popping in BB

PhishNFilly:       availability of said fish mentioned? I know labs are all over but what about the others?

Pam Chin:           spyderette, I understood that.

why_spyder:     Pam - is there a particular species of Aulonocara that you would like to get that you haven't already had (or maybe lost and would like again)?

Pam Chin:           spyder, yeah I like the sand dwellers like rostratum, and saulosi (green face) and you don't see those around every day.

why_spyderette:             just clarifying that for other people lol

SabrinaD:            Peacocks, at least here, can be very expensive and often they are sold in pairs. I'd suggest finding a breeder. Because then you could get a group of juvies

Pam Chin:           Sabrina I think that is good advice! A lot cheaper too

SabrinaD:            Like I said, I had one female spit 60 I was desperate to get rid of them LOL

PhishNFilly:       a green faced saulosi?

ROCK!:  they seem to get along better when they grow up together too

PhishNFilly:       I would love to see a pic of that.

Pam Chin:           Julia, yes, Aulonocara saulosi

PhishNFilly:       wow, I have them Pam but wow on the green faced.

DogWalker:        I've noticed a lot of variability in the temperament of males, such that species/variant reputation is really hit-and miss in terms of which ones will turn out to be the bullies in an all-male mix. Has this been your experience?

why_spyder:     Pam - what sized PVC do you use for Aulonocara - 2" diameter?

PhishNFilly: in case anybody wants to see it.

mikeynashy:      not as pretty females though there really nice

Pam Chin:           Dog, well they definitely have a pecking order, I think if they are young males you don't see it as much. In older males that have been around and had to fight to get land, they are just more aggressive anyway

Pam Chin:           Hi Pantera!

PANTERA:           Holy Full House

Pam Chin:           Spyder, Yes that will work well

SabrinaD:            I bet that was why the older male I had lost out to his son; he'd never had to fight for females

mikeynashy:      Pam how many years have u been keeping cichlids (Iím such a newbie hahaha)

why_spyder:     Hey Pan

PANTERA:           Hey B!

Pam Chin:           Mikey, a long time! Letís just leave it at that!

DogWalker:        ergo when buying adults it's a crapshoot as their character has already been formed

PANTERA:           Hey Pam!

AmayaOkami:   mikey probably longer then youíve been alive

mikeynashy:      lol

mikeynashy:      well Iíve only been alive for 17 years so Iíd say yea

Pam Chin:           Mikey, I have had fish longer then that!

mikeynashy:      lol

why_spyder:     Hey Robt

mikeynashy:      Pam whatís the estimated live span for Aulonocara

Pam Chin:           oh I would say maybe 10 years

Pam Chin:           maybe a couple years longer in our tanks.

Glaive: Clean water and an adequate diet will make a huge difference Mikey

Glaive: Pam: Do you ever give your Aulonocara species a veggie treat?

SabrinaD:            I might suggest that Ps. acei is not an appropriate tank mate for peacocks, not from aggression, but there is a cross breeding risk (of course that was a left over female with no appropriate male and I should have re-homed her long ago

Pam Chin:           Yes, they do get fed quite a few veggie flakes/pellets at my house. Because they don't get a lot of exercise, and I hate a fat peacock.

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, they are little too hyper to be with Peacocks, I agree

Glaive: I concur, I like my cichlids roaming and fed just enough.

ZK1975:                Do you have a favorite location point?

ZK1975:                Lean and mean.. Thatís how I keep 'em :)

Pam Chin:           ZK, I have many but today I have been thinking a lot about Chitande Island on the north end of the lake, what a beautiful place that was to swim.

ZK1975:                Sorry Iím late to the chat, better late than never.

why_spyder:     Not to take away from Pam's chat - but a video on YouTube of Otter Points

mikeynashy:      nice

mikeynashy:      Pam what was the first cichlid u kept?

Glaive: well people certainly have questions for Pam still I would imagine, or should I ask more?

mikeynashy:      keep going Alex if u want lol

Pam Chin:           Mikey, hmmmm

Aimara:                if you were to do a hap/peacock tank are there any particular haps you would avoid?

Pam Chin:           Aimara, yes avoid the predator haps, do the mellow haps, like most of the Copadichromis, Protomelas, some of the Placidochromis

Aimara:                thanks

Pam Chin:           Aimara, Otopharynx is a good one to use with peacocks too

Aimara:                thanks, I have to go, but it was very nice chatting with you. Ciao

Pam Chin:           thanks Aimara!

AmayaOkami:   Pam how did you get into this hobby?

Pam Chin:           Amaya, I married into it. My finmate had fish when I met him. He is really the fish keeper!

SabrinaD:            I like finmate LOL

Eddie789:            Well got to go! Thanks Pam for everything!

Glaive: night Eddie

Pam Chin:           He had huge tanks all over his house with big tank busters in them.

mikeynashy:      nite Eddie

Pam Chin:           Nitey Eddie, thanks for stopping by

AmayaOkami:   thatís cool

Eddie789:            night everyone!

PhishNFilly:       I think it's a huge plus when spouse/boyfriends/girlfriends are liking the same thing you do, especially wet pets, sometimes it doesnít work that way.

Glaive: So he was more of a "New world" keeper?

AmayaOkami:   wish I could find someone in the hobby as well :p

ZK1975:                So what fish did you start off with as "your" fish to begin the hobby?

Pam Chin:           he had an arapaima, knife fish, arowanas

Pam Chin:           Glaive, any world as long it was big and ate other fish! lol

belxavier420:    Nice those are some big fish

mikeynashy:      was waiting for that answer myself zk lol

Glaive: lol

Rich B.: lol

PhishNFilly:       LOL @ Pam

Pam Chin:           Glaive, I have refined his taste in fish

Glaive: hehe

belxavier420:    Big fish are cool, but kind of ugly I have to say

PhishNFilly:       I do have a tank banger, she is a RD named Tootsie.

Glaive: Hi Claudia

why_spyderette:             time for bed. Thanks for the chat Pam

PhishNFilly:       Claudia! Nice to meet you

Glaive: night Ms W

AmayaOkami:   nite Jenn

mikeynashy:      rd bp Oscars arenít bad

mikeynashy:      nite jenn

PhishNFilly:       Jenn sleep well

Pam Chin:           well there is something to be said about having a big fish, it is a lot of fun, but cichlids are fun to breed and their colors lead you to them.

Pam Chin:           Hi Claudia!!!

ZK1975:                U obviously haven't seen Pam's Dovii :P

mikeynashy:      hello Claudia

DogWalker:        Have to go now as well. Thanks Pam!

mikeynashy:      nite dw

PhishNFilly:       bye dog nite

AmayaOkami:   bye DW

Pam Chin:           Sypder, whoopsey, say nighty to ette for me!

SabrinaD:            I agree, I avoided them for years, because I was afraid of the aggression and that I would need a much larger tank

Claudia:               Hi Guys!!! It looks as if I am late for the party!!! (*!*)

Glaive: No worries, we lost a few EST peeps so we needed a refresher from that side :)

Claudia:               Hi Pam!!!

Pam Chin:           Claudia, no never too late, we will get a second wind now that you are here!

Claudia:               Now I need to go through the transcripts to catch up...

Glaive: I can email them to you Claudia but it might take you a little bit

Pam Chin:           Claudia, we just had nice chat about Aulonocara, but I think we are ready to move on to any cichlids now!

Claudia:               Hi PhishNFilly! So wonderful to meet you!!!

SabrinaD:            Do you keep mbuna too?

Glaive: Pam and Claudia, What was each of your most enjoyable locations during the trip to Malawi this summer?

ZK1975:                Pam: Lethrinops!!!! lol

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, yeah I keep a few, some Cynotilapia and few Pseudotropheus

Pam Chin:           ZK, Lethrinops I love them!

Glaive: Follow up for Pam, which was your favorite Tanganyikan location (donít say the ride there ;)

Pam Chin:           Glaive, the best place, and I am sure Claudia will back me up on this was Nkondwe Island

why_spyder:     Since it is gen. chat now - I put up a video of the new fish from today

Claudia:               Yes! Nkondwe Island for sure!!! Oh, my! It was a dream!

Glaive: Was there a specific reason for it being your favorite?

why_spyder:     Met Pan today too :D

Pam Chin:           Glaive, well it was packed with fish, and there were no crocs!

PhishNFilly:       B awesome! And I will see the vid in a lil bit.

Claudia:               So many species in one place. A true dream...

AmayaOkami:   ok I think ima go to bed now lol being sick sucks

belxavier420:    Uhhh no crocs is the plus side?? Yikes

Glaive: lol good answer, no snakes and spiders either right?

PhishNFilly:       kan ewe dew that lol


Glaive: night Amaya, get better

Pam Chin:           glaive, well we didn't see any snakes, thank god, but everyone had to tell you about them.

Pam Chin:           Glaive, and spyder are everywhere!

Glaive: hehe

why_spyder:     :p

PhishNFilly:       so did you hug when you met Brian? LOL

mikeynashy:      oh gosh

mikeynashy:      snakes and spider shhhhh

mikeynashy:      crocs ehh

belxavier420:    Yeah I am scared of crocodiles big time!

Pam Chin:           Glaive, but once you get your face in the water, you don't think about that, and at this site, there were so many fish it was just awesome, Claudia swam around the island like 4 times, I think I did twice, she is better swimmer then me.

mikeynashy:      not me as long as there not near me like right next to me

Glaive: sounds delightful, one of these years I am going to join you!

Claudia:               Pam is fantastic in the water!!!

Pam Chin:           Claudia, don't lie!!!!


SabrinaD:            did you bring any home?

PhishNFilly:       lol U2

Pam Chin:           I did do better with my airline life jacket!

PhishNFilly:       LOL pan

ZK1975:                If I were to win the lottery, perhaps I'd like to go. Though I have the swimming abilities of a rock.

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, no you can't bring any fish back with you.

belxavier420:    Did you guys practice swimming with fins before you went?

Pam Chin:           Belxavier, I just make sure I am the last person in the water, that way, the crocs are usually busy by them.

Glaive: lol

Claudia:               Most of the creatures one does not need to worry about, although it is good to keep an eye open as crocs blend in so well. We observed tons of them in Katavi National Park. They were *huge*!

belxavier420:    Hmm I donít know if I like that logic, I would have to go first so they would catch the slowest

Pam Chin:           Belxavier, no, the last time I had been swimming, was two years earlier in Malawi. But we had just spent two weeks in Malawi before Tanganyika and we were swimming machines! In Malawi!!

Claudia:               Pam, you have me laughing! In Tanganyika, we wait and let the guys check it out first!

belxavier420:    I love swimming that would be amazing

Pam Chin:           bel, well you would have a good time then!

Glaive: fortunately for Pam and Claudia there were plenty of brave men weighed down by camera equipment ;)

Pam Chin:           glaive, men weighted down with camera equipment, yes, I don't know about brave!!!

Glaive: Did you get to see any of the ANDs this trip?

belxavier420:    hehe if not brave at least distracted

Pam Chin:           Glaive, we did go to Nakantenga Island in the Maleri Islands, but we didn't see any snorkeling. They saw a couple when they were diving.

why_spyder:     Nakantenga - home of C. sp. "Maleri" :D

Claudia:               We did go to the Maleri Islands, but this time did not see the ANDs as we did in 2008.

Glaive: Are the locations they were at seeing a nice recovery?

Pam Chin:           Claudia swam around that island too!

Pam Chin:           Glaive, oh yes, there is definitely a comeback on the fish with AND's!

Claudia:               Ad has found a marked increase in species that had been on the decline.

PANTERA:           Nice!

Pam Chin:           Now it is turning into a maintenance thing, they get all clogged up with nets

Glaive: nice, very nice, those couple shots of tequila I bought in 08 are at work ;)

Glaive: so we need to keep helping out how we can then?

Pam Chin:           Glaive, itís kind of on hold right now, we want to do Cape Maclear next, and they working on the logistics

Pam Chin:           so hopefully soon they will have a plan.

Glaive: What are the logistical issues they face, that you know of?

Claudia:               Yes! The ANDs are truly making a difference! It is currently a matter of manpower which I am sure will be worked out and back to fast forward soon.

Pam Chin:           glaive, well man power to set the and's, and to get the buy in from the chief at Cape Maclear

belxavier420:    I showed up really late what is AND?

Claudia:               Anti Netting Device (s).

Glaive: anti netting device, link to follow

belxavier420:    Yes sir, give me the information and thank you

Pam Chin:           glaive, itís not like you can go to Lowes or Home depot in Malawi and get parts. They are primitively tying these on with chain, because there is no other way to do it economically


PANTERA:           Has anyone proposed a restocking program?

Pam Chin:           they tie it on to a rock.

Pam Chin:           Pantera, well a lot of these fish are not even in the hobby, so there is no way to restock it.

Glaive: That's exactly what I was curious about Pam, was not certain if it was hard ware or pirate types of problems

PANTERA:           understood

Pam Chin:           glaive its hardware

Claudia:               Alex, do you have the link to the more recent video? It is a great piece! That might be at the end of the article that you just posted.

Pam Chin:           pantera, they really don't like to introduce captive stock back in a wild location, because of disease

Pam Chin:           yeah, the video is at the end of that link

belxavier420:    Is it hard to keep these fish in a tank after you have seen them in their natural habitat?

Pam Chin:           belxavier, no, itís not, it just makes you want more.

ZK1975:                How long are they ANDs intended to operate properly once placed? They expect to last X amount of years before something breaks apart from the elements and such..

PANTERA:           I can see that I didnít know if the government in the area had a conservation program to restock

Pam Chin:           zk, they seem to be lasting fine once in place, until they get plugged up with nets. But once cleaned off they still do fine.

belxavier420:    Just creates the desire to replicate natural habitat since you have seen it then?


ZK1975:                How often do they need cleaning off?

Pam Chin:           belxavier, yes, it does, it makes you want to maintain that species so some will be able to keep it going, because we will lose these fish. They will probably eat all of them.

Claudia:               The ANDs are made out of pretty rugged material. You will see that with the video clip.

belxavier420:    Pam that is really awesome, that is great you had that experience

Pam Chin:           ZK, it depends on how many people try to fish there, most know that they can't they don't want to lose their nets; some nets may just be floating into the water too.

SabrinaD:            I've always wondered if the locals really eat all the fish we keep in tanks LOL, they must think we are wasteful

mikeynashy:      dang people

Pam Chin:           belxavier these lakes are unbelievable, I wish everyone could see them.

Pam Chin:           sabrina, they get quite a kick out of it, that we come all the way just to look at the fish

Claudia:               We observe fishing camps on tiny islands that are packed with fishermen living on a hill in the tiniest of shelters. They go out fishing all day and every day.

belxavier420:    I have been looking at AND but I can't stop looking at all the pretty fish, these devices replace nets, or destroy nets?

Pam Chin:           yeah we are swimming along, and all of sudden we surrounded by dugout canoes and we are right in the middle of a prime fishing area!

mikeynashy:      destroy nets

Pam Chin:           belxavier they destroy the net

Glaive: they enforce more responsible fishing practices

SabrinaD:            too bad they can't build more tourism out of it and get more good out of preserving the habitat

Pam Chin:           glaive I would say the government supports more responsible fishing practices, but there is no one to enforce it.

Claudia:               They drag the waters picking up all sizes of fish. One swoop and hundreds of fish are all gone in a given area.

Glaive: must be nice, wish out own government would follow suit ;)

SabrinaD:            ouch

mikeynashy:      damn\

belxavier420:    Glaive if you try to net fish in us you will get in trouble big time

SabrinaD:            how much meat can you get off a 3 inch fish?

mikeynashy:      eat it whole

claudius002:       And Turtles!! Wait...Thatís the Ocean...

Rich B.: lol

belxavier420:    Not defending our government but our Federal wildlife reserve does better than most

Glaive: when you have no meat Sabrina, you can get plenty

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, well that s part of the problem too, they aren't necessarily going for the mbuna types, but they all get caught up in the net when they are trying to get bigger fish

Claudia:               Yes, enforcement is a major challenge. That is why if we want to make a difference, we have to get out there and do it ourselves.

PANTERA:           it has to be tough considering the fishermen arenít sport fishing they are fishing to feed their family

Glaive: it's not quite as restrictive as one would think bel, sad but true

Glaive: We need to send Jonah and seedy to Malawi then :D

Pam Chin:           Pantera, and they can still fish, they are just trying to keep them from seining on the shore, they can still go out away from the shore and fish

belxavier420:    I guess where I live they are stricter; they have streams where you can only use single hooks and no live bait

PANTERA:           I know

SabrinaD:            I do know they are using whatever they can get their hands on to fish with including the mosquito netting, but it would be nice I the nets had to have a certain size holes to allow small/young fish to pass trough

PhishNFilly:       wb meg

Claudia:               It is very hard to see the poverty and deny food to anyone who is suffering. That goes for saying across the globe in many regions.

AmayaOkami:   lol hiya

Glaive: it is a tough spot Pan, you donít want to impact their ability to survive however if you do not do something then the very thing on which they survive will not exist

Pam Chin:           belxavier, the problem with our government is that they are going to ban the importation of non native fish, thatís how we are going to be hurt n the long run.

Glaive: wb Meg

why_spyder:     So Pam and Claudia - does this mean we will get to see your faces in this chat more often? :D

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, they don't, they all use their bill gates mosquito nets to catch fish of all sizes, itís pretty disgusting.

PhishNFilly:       yea yea!

Glaive: it is also hard to explain suffering to people who haven't seen it in person

SabrinaD:            and importing isnít the problem, over fishing for food is

Claudia:               It is a fine balance and that is why educating with sustainable food sources is critical.

belxavier420:    Yeah that would be terrible; I don't know anything about that to be honest

Pam Chin:           yes, everyone needs to stay aware and maintain your species of fish; we don't know when they will be gone.

SabrinaD:            would setting up fish farms using the fish they already eat, be helpful?

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, they have tried that in the southern part of the lake and it has not been successful

SabrinaD:            too bad, just hope they learned their lesson with Lake Victoria and introduced food fish

Claudia:               This is why we must maintain the species while we still can. We must share them amongst each other, and not let them go the way of the cichlids of Lake Victoria and of Madagascar.

Pam Chin:           The amounts of fish that are exported for the tropical fish hobby are not even one drop in the bucket

SabrinaD:            exactly, but hobbyists will be the one loss out if our government takes action and it won't stop the loss of fish

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, true but they won't be able to get rid of the fish that are here, and we will still be able to breed them and pass them around. It would be like it is in Australia.

Pam Chin:           Sabina but new wild fish and new species would be impossible to get.

PANTERA:           speaking of Victoria I looked at 5 bags of fulu's from the gcca today none of them were pure or correct species! grrrrr

SabrinaD:            ouch

Pam Chin:           Pantera, sadly there is a lot of Vic crap going around.

SabrinaD:            and this is why we are so adamant about not letting hybrids out into the hobby

why_spyder:     Midwest grab bag special ;)

mikeynashy:      so sad

Pam Chin:           Sabrina I think so... however there are many already out there, so awareness is what we can strive for, and educate fish keepers

SabrinaD:            some want to claim we are being snobby, but if we don't preserve what is here, we may lose them all together

AmayaOkami:   I guess with so many tank raised generations trying to repopulate the wild would be useless huh?

Claudia:               It is so important to maintain species tanks and practice and pass on responsible fish keeping.

PANTERA:           yeah one person started passing them around and now everyone has a spin off from that hybrid

Pam Chin:           Amaya, yeah they have not been successful with re-introduction, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that the habitat cannot be fixed to take new stock. We can't re-introduce fish in to Victoria

Glaive: I would not count on repopulating the wild, keeping a species to me is more about the ability to educate.

Pam Chin:           Pantera, the Midwest is getting a big of a nasty reputation for not being responsible fish keepers, just breed them, get your BAP points and dump them. Doesnít make for good maintenance of a species

Glaive: I try to keep what I have as close to the wild phenotype as possible because the pictures I take today could one day be the only proof that the species existed

Claudia:               Actually, there have been successful reintroductions in Madagascar. These are currently far and few between and so we must act now to preserve what we are so fortunate to still have as the conditions deteriorate more rapidly than conservation efforts can keep up with.

ZK1975:                Madagascar.. mmmm Menarambo :)

AmayaOkami:   so do you think it is better to raise the species we r losing?

Glaive: Claudia were those hobbyist reintroduction or professional scientist reintroduction?

Pam Chin:           Amaya I think you should keep what you want to keep, but make sure it doesn't get crossed up. And of course anything that they are not cranking out in Asia has more value to hobbyists.

Claudia:               Raised by hobbyists (yes!) and reintroduced by scientists.

Pam Chin:           Its not very often you can get the hobbyists and the scientists on the same page, so that was a big success!

PANTERA:           well Pam Iím going to try to change that once I get things set up

Pam Chin:           Pantera, good, we can't save all the cichlids, but we can each keep one species going.

Glaive: really and thus far no issues with diseases?

Pam Chin:           glaive, I don't think they had anything to lose in that case; it was that desperate of a situation.

Glaive: gotcha

PANTERA:           my Paralabidochromis chromogynos I got from laif spawned about 50 fry couple weeks ago

Claudia:               No issues at this time. This will be, I believe, the third year of observation.

SabrinaD:            would tank raised fish be more likely to catch a disease since they've never been exposed to them?

belxavier420:    I like that idea, raising endangered species.

Pam Chin:           Pantera awesome!

Glaive: I often have trouble not thinking like an engineer and programmer so I can over think ;)

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, it could go either way

Glaive: technically yes Sabrina which is my concern, however if the situation is dire enough one might take chances

Glaive: in turn the tank raised fish might have immunities to things the wild ones do not

Glaive: I would think there is a tipping point where a situation is bad enough that we donít have the luxuries we might otherwise have

belxavier420:    The fry that survive are better suited for tank life?

PANTERA:           I think every swap I attend has more hybrids that pathetic when there are so many pure species out there why would you mess with that by crossing them!

Claudia:               When you see with your own eyes the dire situation of the environment, the people, the creatures, and the fish, you understand that our hope right now is to preserve these fish in our tanks. Conservation efforts on the ground rely on a network of factors that can take years. The fish do not have years...

Pam Chin:           Pantera, yeah I don't know, doesn't make any sense to me.

why_spyder:     Pan - that's because there is more and more Angelfish present :p

Glaive: I think some people do not appreciate Mother Nature as much as they should Pan

PANTERA:           I think all people care about anymore is the almighty dollar whatever it takes to turn a quick buck

SabrinaD:            I have a fish in my tank that isn't bright, but I look at it and see the body shape and fin shape and healthy and I think it's a beautiful fish, not everyone can see that

PANTERA:           yeah the angelfish were plentiful today

Glaive: all the more reason to work towards sustaining species

Pam Chin:           yes, once you see fish in the wild, it gives you a whole different idea of where you fish come from and how you got them. I am amazed that we see any wild fish.

why_spyder:     Pan, we need to reserve half the tables in the spring - and flood the place with Rifts, lol

PANTERA:           hell yeah B!!

AmayaOkami:   Julia can I please have my green back lol I hate pink :p

PhishNFilly:       LOLOL not yet sweetie.

SabrinaD:            I could send some of my fry to guys for the tables (I wouldn't be able to go)

AmayaOkami:   awww

mikeynashy:      go orange with me love

PANTERA:           I have visited an angelfish breederís place they breed huge spawns and sell them for 25 cents each

Glaive: Now for a little background here, Claudia is a very special lady, she created a wonderful program to help maintain species at risk. Claudia created Cares


Glaive: not trying to embarrass you Claudia, you have done and continue to do a lot of wonderful things and deserve recognition

PANTERA:           Hi Claudia very nice to meet you Iím looking forward to working with you in the future.

SabrinaD:            Claudia, I'm still planning to dedicate tank space to some wild type bettas, just looking for a source LOL, and I have to get the fry I have in there big enough to move on

PhishNFilly:       nice B, I will pick your brain tomorrow on how it went.

Claudia:               Thank you, Alex! I am blushing!

PhishNFilly:       Thumbs up to Claudia

SabrinaD:            I love the idea and want to help out myself

Glaive: Pam, just to bring things full circle, how many Cares species do you keep?

ZK1975:                Ok folks, Iíd love to hang out more but Iím on borrowed time and can't afford to pay the debt ;)

AmayaOkami:   awww night Z

why_spyder:     Night Z

Glaive: night Z

mikeynashy:      kk all time for bed nite ty soooooooo much Pam for the chat and nice meeting u Claudia

Glaive: night Mikey

AmayaOkami:   nite mikey

mikeynashy:      Thumbs up for u 2

Pam Chin:           glaive, uhhh I have a couple, Nanoluteus

Claudia:               We can only do our work with the dedicated help of an amazing CARES Team with people such as Pam and Alex without whom we could not do without!!! It is *all* of you who make up CARES!!!

Pam Chin:           So you can all understand why we are so passionate about our cichlids!

Claudia:               Pam is an amazing lady who champions our conservation efforts across the country!

belxavier420:    This is my first chat night and I am very glad I made it especially since the hosts are so interesting

AmayaOkami:   they are awesome!

Claudia:               We are so glad that you made it, too!

Pam Chin:           Belxavier, yes I am glad you could make it!! And glad you enjoyed it!

Pam Chin:           Claudia and I are fearless cichlid sisters!!!!! Out to save the world of cichlids if we can!

AmayaOkami:   lol

SabrinaD:            Glaive, can we get an article on conservation together for the knowledge base

belxavier420:    It has truly given me a new outlook on fish keeping. I will be keeping this in mind next time I find a cheap tank on craigslist :)

Claudia:               Yes!!! We are fearless Cichlid Sisters!!! (*!*)

SabrinaD:            Are there any mbuna on the list Claudia?

Claudia:               We are so glad, belxavier!

PhishNFilly:       Pam your presentation was great; it was a very informative night for us all, thanks to you for giving us your time and expertise.

Claudia:               There are no mbuna at this time.

SabrinaD:            too bad, they are my favorites LOL (or maybe it's good if they don't need to be on there)

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, you will have to check the list, if not there probably will be some soon, as they are just starting to rate Malawi fish in the ICUN system. Or do some research and keep a species from Malawi that is only found in one area, those are the ones that are going to be at most risk

Pam Chin:           Julia thanks!!!! I appreciate the kind words!

SabrinaD:            like ones that have a location name?

PhishNFilly:       :)

Claudia:               Pam, thank you ever so much for a *wonderful* evening!!! You are our Malawi/Tanganyika *STAR*!!!

PANTERA:           I should have picked up the bag of Tilapia snyderae at the swap today

Pam Chin:           Sabrina well some fish are found throughout the lake, but there are many that are only found in one area. Like Ps. polit. only found at Lions cove, or Ps. Saulosi only found at Taiwan reef.

Pam Chin:           Pantera, yes you should have thatís a fun fish to work with!

SabrinaD:            Currently I keep C. afra cobue, Lab. chisumulae, M. joanjohnsonae, M. sp "zebra long pelvic" probably Mdoka (something like that)

why_spyder:     Cynotilapia sp. Maleri

AmayaOkami:   I love my saulosi ^.^

why_spyder:     Cynotilapia axelrodi

Pam Chin:           Sabrina yes Mdoka

SabrinaD:            they have yellow in the upper fin and yellow along the belly, those are Mdoka I believe

PhishNFilly:       Oh btw Pam, I have three female Saulosi coming to me on wed, I found my gals for my men. My breeder came thru for me.

PANTERA:           I had one female Tilapia snyderae she fell in love with my 13" Burundi frontosa male laying eggs all over his rocks

AmayaOkami:   lol

Pam Chin:           Julia, awesome!

PhishNFilly:       yup, I canít wait

Pam Chin:           Pantera, lol

SabrinaD:            Brian do you have any C. sp Maleri?

Pam Chin:           Pantera, I once had a convict spawn with a tuna sandwich

SabrinaD:            lol

belxavier420:    big grin

PhishNFilly:       LOL @ Pam......I just lost my tea to my monitor! lffn here

PANTERA:           lmao

why_spyder:     Sabrina - no. Been trying to get a hold of a guy in NY that used to have them

why_spyder:     But he never replies

SabrinaD:            too bad

Pam Chin:           well thatís one thing about cichlids, they are born to spawn!

SabrinaD:            lol, I tell newbies they live to eat, breed and fight (not necessarily in that order)

AmayaOkami:   lol

Pam Chin:           yip, sounds like the cichlids I know!

Claudia:               I'm off to go back to work! Pam, thank you so much for a wonderful Chat!!! And Alex, thank you and your special staff so much as well!


Pam Chin:           oh I think they are big time buds!

AmayaOkami:   awwwww lol

PhishNFilly:       Oh pan what a great shot

SabrinaD:            I bet he was confused when she didn't pick them up LOL


belxavier420:    Sucks to be the little guy, he must be bringing it on himself


PANTERA:           was a female trying to entice the frontosa to spawn with her

PANTERA:           crazy tilapia!

belxavier420:    She likey da hump... Me too though soo uhh ??

PANTERA:           I was told that is I got a male for her and they did spawn they would kill the frontosa and everything else in the tank

PhishNFilly:       :(

belxavier420:    buttererafuka?

SabrinaD:            are going to put them in their own tank then?

belxavier420:    yeah I can't spell it very well

belxavier420:    butterifuki

Pam Chin:           buttikoferi

belxavier420:    Mean dudes

PANTERA:           unfortunately the frontosa got tired of her advances and killed her

belxavier420:    Just now??

Glaive: been a while I think bel

PANTERA:           yeah almost 6 months ago

Glaive: I try to keep up on every bodies tanks but there are a few of you so... ;)

SabrinaD:            sorry to hear pan

PANTERA:           yeah me too it happened in one night couldnít stop it

belxavier420:    Still sucks but at least that was then

PANTERA:           I will get more when I can give them their own tank

SabrinaD:            always hate that, coming down to find a fish you thought was fine one day and gone by morning

PANTERA:           Hey B did you see that bucket of apistogramma 2 tables over from Chrisís?

PhishNFilly:       I love apisto.......I have a trio

PANTERA:           they had about 100 fish jammed in a 1 gallon plastic tank

why_spyder:     yeah Pan

why_spyder:     Not sure what some people are thinking there - if they are thinking at all

Glaive: did we lose Pam or was it refill time?

PANTERA:           I donít even think they had an air stone in it

Pam Chin:           glaive, no I am still here!

SabrinaD:            yikes!

why_spyder:     Pan, nope.

Glaive: okay Pam

why_spyder:     The couple that sold my wife angels had leakers all over - and they knew that their angels would fin-stick the bags

why_spyder:     yet they didn't double bag

SabrinaD:            my lab chisumulae are flirting!

why_spyder:     Pam - Have you had Fosso. rostratus?

PANTERA:           the extra penny per bag would break them!

SabrinaD:            chisumulae

why_spyder:     lol

Glaive: I am still curious about Tanganyika Pam, how was the lake when you found it and how much had changed from your last visit?

Pam Chin:           spyder, oh yes, I have them now, they are awesome!

why_spyder:     Pam - what size tank?

Pam Chin:           glaive, well I didn't go back to the same place, but where I had gone before has completely changed, we went to a collection station and itís gone now.

SabrinaD:            Aw they moved away. It was neat, I think they may breed soon (I hope so). He was displaying and she was hanging around with him.

Pam Chin:           spyder, oh a 20? lol

Pam Chin:           Glaive, but where we were at this time, was very remote, there was no easy way to get there, as it seems with everywhere on Tanganyika, it is just a logistic nightmare.

why_spyder:     sweet - so my 29g should be fine

Pam Chin:           Glaive, no power, undependable cell towers, but on my god it was so beautiful

Glaive: did the fish seem okay or did you see reasons for concern?

Pam Chin:           Spyder, I was kidding! I have them in 100 gal tank


Pam Chin:           Glaive I think the fish are okay right now, there is just no way to get them out and to us.

why_spyder:     Metriaclima flavifemina Maleri Island

Glaive: good to know Pam

Pam Chin:           glaive, there have been a few species that have been overfished for the hobby, but even that has been several years. Nothing new of that I have heard

belxavier420:    I find the fish of Lake Tang the most interesting, besides the Shellies is there a species that can live in a smaller tank?

belxavier420:    30-40 gallon that is

why_spyder:     crash time for me

why_spyder:     night ya'll

PhishNFilly:       B sleep well

Glaive: some brichardi types can go in that tank size, just start with a pair and only keep that species

Glaive: you can also do the smaller Julie species

Glaive: anything else and I am not sure lol

Pam Chin:           bel, oh yeah, there are lots. Most of the lamps you could do in that.

PANTERA:           bbiaf food run

Pam Chin:           the Julies, Chalinochromis, Telmatochromis

belxavier420:    Not to discriminate but what would you suggest for a 30 gallon where I could raise a what could become endangered because that does spark my interest

Pam Chin:           Bel: I don't know what all is on the list. We need to look at it first before I could make a suggestion.

belxavier420:    That many

Pam Chin:           Belxavier, but snyderae thatís one, the fish with Pan's frontosa

tnbrother:           if anyone is interested I just posted a video of my 150G Central American tank and one of my 55G planted tank


belxavier420:    As always thanks glaive!

Pam Chin:           bel, okay there you go, but dang there is a lot on there that is going to be hard to find.

SabrinaD:            Pam have you been to Chisumulae island?

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, yes,!!!!! I had not been before on previous trips, but I went there this year, its dinky!! I thought it was a lot bigger.

Pam Chin:           Claudia could have swum around it!

SabrinaD:            that pretty cool, you got to see where my labs ancestors came from LOL

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, yeah, itís so awesome to see fish you have kept before.

SabrinaD:            do they fish around the island?

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, yes, they do, they fish for usiypa a lot there it is a small sardine like fish. And then dry it on the lake shore

Pam Chin:           They fish for it at night

SabrinaD:            wow, does the night time fishing help keep other species out of the net (like mbuna)?

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, well the mbuna are sleeping, and they use these huge lights, they used to use lanterns, and now they have these huge spot lights run on propane, and the attract the fish and then they heard them all together and get them in the net.

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, so they mbuna are not usually caught during this type of fishing

SabrinaD:            that's not too bad if the food fish are able to sustain numbers

Pam Chin:           yeah, well they aren't, because the fish are a lot smaller now, then they were so we know they are being overfished

Glaive: is the usiypa similar to the Cyprichromis species of Tanganyika?


SabrinaD:            scroll down and you'll see them

Pam Chin:           Glaive, it is similar to kapenta in Lake Tanganyika it is also a sardine type fish. I call cyps sardines, but it is a true sardine! lol

Pam Chin:           glaive and they were fishing for kapenta every night on Tanganyika, they line up and you see this big line of fisherman on the horizon,... Kind of like the shoe Dept at Nordstrom during the half yearly sale!

belxavier420:    Excellent chat and Iíll do my best to make it next time. Pam thanks for sharing your experiences hopefully one day Iíll have a similar story to tell. Night all!

Pam Chin:           NItey Bel, thanks for coming!

Glaive: wow, I would imagine the stocks have trouble keeping up

Pam Chin:           yeah, I am amazed

Glaive: do you think we can influence the locals through supporting educational programs? Perhaps providing a different path?

SabrinaD:            I wish there was some feasible solution to this, the fish are going to die and then the people will

Glaive: my concern too Sab

Pam Chin:           glaive, no I don't think so, our desire for these fish is so low on the scale of what they need, that there is no way to approach like that.

Pam Chin:           compounded with the size of these lakes! They are so big

Glaive: fair enough, besides we'd probably end up encouraging cattle and lose the whole lake in an algal bloom, (only half kidding)

Pam Chin:           It is larger than the central valley in California

Glaive: that is really adding some perspective

Pam Chin:           They are both bordered by multiple countries, which don't really like each other

Glaive: that doesn't even cover the depth

SabrinaD:            that never helps either

Pam Chin:           I have often said, if Lake Malawi was in California we would have pumped it dry by now.

Glaive: so in otherwise, once again preserve what we have

Pam Chin:           Compounded with, did I tell you about the people that were at the same lodge in Tanganyika? They just got a 6.5 million dollar contract to look in to oil and gas deposits on the lake. Hired by the Tanzania government.

SabrinaD:            yikes!

Pam Chin:           So they were from Australia and they were flying a grid on the lake.

Glaive: If you were to ask new hobbyists to do one thing, what would that be?

Glaive: oh man

SabrinaD:            we know how responsible the oil and gas industry are

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, oh we were sick about it. Claudia couldnít even talk to them! lol

SabrinaD:            I can imagine

Pam Chin:           Glaive, please don't by hybrids, keep fish like they look in the wild.

Glaive: Now one more that I try to ask everyone

SabrinaD:            that would include the line breed fish as well? In not buying them

Glaive: What's your worst fish disaster and how did you get past it?

SabrinaD:            Larry

Glaive: howdy larry

Larryochromis:  Hi Gang!

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, I will tolerate a line bred fish. But if we want to keep these fish in the hobby we need to be maintaining them to the wild type.

Pam Chin:           Hey Larry!

SabrinaD:            there was something I was supposed to ask you but I can't remember LOL

Larryochromis:  Hi Pammy!

SabrinaD:            I think it was about a species of fish and if you still keep it, but I can't remember what it was LOL

Pam Chin:           Glaive, oh easy!!! That would be killing off Tropheus, I think I had for two days and I killed all 24, how did I get over that?? I just bought 24 more! Took me about 2 weeks before I killed those!

SabrinaD:            oh my goodness!

Larryochromis:  I have 4 wild groups here Pam and they have been doing great since I brought them in from Tanz

Pam Chin:           Larry my cichlid friend, how goes it??

Glaive: good stuff Pam, I think it helps new hobbyists to know that more experienced people make mistakes and get passed them; it helps teach making lemonade from lemons

Larryochromis:  good,,,busy day at home packing fish today

SabrinaD:            So do you all think you have to at least one major fish disaster to be considered experienced LOL

Pam Chin:           Larry Tangs?

Glaive: when are you not packing fish Larry?

Pam Chin:           Sabrina, no I think you need more than 1!!

Glaive: No sab but the experience of having a disaster is a valuable lesson

Larryochromis:  lol...well I just sent out 4 boxes up north, then had a call from another guy, so I got the flight covered for next year!

SabrinaD:            I agree LOL

Pam Chin:           Larry, nice!!! Claudia and I shooting for 2012!

Glaive: Up north from you Larry, that either tundra or moose country lol

SabrinaD:            I think the species I was looking at was a Cynotilapia species; the only pic I saw had your name on it LOL

Larryochromis:  Glaive its Sudbury!

Glaive: oh yep a little north

Larryochromis:  Pam 2012? I already have two people wanting to go for that year

Larryochromis:  Glaive a 5 hour drive in good weather

Glaive: yep been a looooong time but I have made that drive

Pam Chin:           Larry, well let them know we will be have try outs at ACA!!

Pam Chin:           Larry, we will see if they can cut the mustard!

Larryochromis:  Pam the two who want to go were with me in 2002 and want to go back in 2012, but it doesn't hurt to let them try out again!

Larryochromis:  Rich I think its cool, should put it in there with for a good laugh and see who's actually participating

Pam Chin:           Larry well for sure! Youíll go with anyone!!! Claudia and I have a few standards! lol

Glaive: hahaha

PhishNFilly:       sigh Pam on the Tropheus story........just got to it.

Larryochromis:  Pam,LOL

Larryochromis:  Rich, might be an interesting Advert to enter pics though.

Glaive: Larry is there a Malawi video up from this year yet? via cichlidpress or anyone else?

PhishNFilly:       rich lmao good pic

Larryochromis:  Glaive, no nothing yet. Ad said he MIGHT have our Safaris DVD ready by Christmas :( but who knows

Larryochromis:  usually he has it done by OCA and gives it to us there, should be at least a few participants attending

Rich B.: lol

Pam Chin:           I can't wait to see that! lol

Glaive: well I shall look forward to it

Firecat325:          Oh dear, I have a 7 year old who really wants that video Larry ;-)

Pam Chin:           firecat, oh dear, well make sure someone previews it first, you never know what stupid adults put on film.

Pam Chin:           especially crazy cichlid people!

Glaive: lol

PhishNFilly:       lol pam

Pam Chin:           and we had a few on this trip! lol

SabrinaD:            Larry, it was Cynotilapia Sp lion ntekete

SabrinaD:            do you still have any?

Pam Chin:           I wonder if he got a video of Dan Fishing on top the boat at Chitande Island, and all of us in the water

Firecat325:          Pam, he's good at not getting what he's not supposed to. He's totally in love with the Nat Geo one. He's watched it about 6 times!

Firecat325:          ;-)

Pam Chin:           firecat, awesome! Well there is not enough videos on Malawi I will say that!

Firecat325:          Very true.

Glaive: agreed we need more lake video

Firecat325:          I think now that people have seen and like the planet earth videos there's more of a market for them as well

Firecat325:          People are ready to be impressed with nature ;-)

Pam Chin:           yeah, there are a lot of videos on U-tube though if you ever go there

Pam Chin:           on Malawi a few people have uploaded


Firecat325:          I'll try that

Pam Chin:           and no one knows where to go to see these fish except Ad and Larry!

PhishNFilly:       I need to go, I am going to say goodnight and again Pam thanks for all

PhishNFilly:       goodnight everyone..........

Glaive: so if we start saving now I might get to join this crew in 2012 ;)

Pam Chin:            Julia, my pleasure, thanks for being here!

Glaive: night Julia

PhishNFilly:       I hope youíre not a stranger Pam .........nite guys

Pam Chin:           whoops, thanks Julia!

Glaive: if you fill a chat room with cichlidiots Pam will come

Pam Chin:           lol!

Pam Chin:           okay, well I better go get a few things done! Back to work tomorrow. Thanks everyone for a great chat!

Pam Chin:           Cichlid Power!


A big thanks to Pam for leading a great chat night. We peaked at 17 people and had several hobby notables pop in. This was a lot of fun and I hope all of you reading this enjoy it as much as we did. Maybe youíll even drop into a chat yourself. ;) If you are interested in leading a chat please contact a member of the CF management or a chat team member.


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