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Cichlids: A Knowledge Base .: Chat Logs .: 10/10/24 Haps (Haplochromines) with Ed Martin

10/10/24 Haps (Haplochromines) with Ed Martin

emartin: Alright so how is everybody? What fish does everybody mostly keep? (So I can get an idea if I could use abbreviations for fish or write out the full scientific names for ones I am referring to)

sepratbill: mostly mbuna here, but I've got 4 Cyrtocara moorii

why_spyder: I keep Malawians - mostly mbuna

Glaive: I personally keep Tangs: Julies, Xenos, Comps, and a shellie species. I have kept S. fryeri in the past

Parrothead: Just coming back to cichlids, planning haps and peacocks, currently glass box cycling, no fish

CrazyFishMama: am new and in love with Acei and Yellow Labs but don't have any yet trying to learn

PhishNFilly: Pseudotropheus saulosi  /  Rusties

Rich B.: Big on Aul. few haps, few mbuna, few tangs, etc.

AmayaOkami: I got saulosi

tchill93x: p. crabros, acei, mbuna only (well bn pleco, etc)

RustyNut: I prefer dwarf mbuna

PhishNFilly: Apisto/Blue rams

emartin: I keep mostly Malawi Haplochromines and some Aulonocara, with one token mbuna (yellow Labidochromis). I have kept wild Altolamprologus calvus yellow (I forgot the location...Nkanda maybe?) bred a few times but I never saved the fry. Other than that the only other Tanganyikan fish I kept was Neolamprologus sexfasciatus (just a solo individual) and then catfish

emartin: like Phyllonemus typus (currently still have) and Synodontis tanganicae

emartin: so don't ask me about mbuna or Tanganyikan fish, I'm the absolutely wrong person to ask lol

Parrothead: quick question, a long time ago, I had what was called, common name, Gold Synodontis, any idea what the scent. Name would be, I want another but haven't found anything under gold

emartin: did it come from Tanganyika?

emartin: ones that come to mind that are a little gold-ish colored from Tanganyika are S. polli/eurystomus, and one more but that name escapes me

Parrothead: not real sure, bought it from a lfs I worked at part-time, he simply referred to it as a gold syn.

Glaive: I have no issue with pointing people to the right places to find out information, that being said the best place on the web to figure it out would be planet catfish


emartin: and

why_spyder: All the Synodontis

AmayaOkami: Ok Ima start with a stupid question: What are the main differences between haps and peacocks?

Parrothead: Thanks Glaive

emartin: My honest opinion there really isn't any. I personally think they belong in the haps category.

RustyNut: Peacocks are just sort of a special variety of haps

emartin: Yes exactly

AmayaOkami: Iíve seen everyone refers to them at the same time...itís always haps and peacocks and they look alike

why_spyder: Ed - How long have you been keeping Hap's?

emartin: From what I heard mbuna just means rock fish, and by that logic then Placidochromis milomo is a mbuna fish!

Glaive: ditto those above; no real difference that I have heard of scientifically it's more that peacocks are a subset of haps

AmayaOkami: ahh kk

emartin: Only since 2007 so far

RustyNut: a very colorful subset

AmayaOkami: except the females

Glaive: true Rusty

CrazyFishMama: are the ones I like the acei and the yellow labs mbuna's

RustyNut: Yes

AmayaOkami: yes

CrazyFishMama: ok ty

Glaive: yes those are mbuna

PhishNFilly: Q.  If I was going to stock a 75 gallon Ed, what haps would you recommend?

RustyNut: I want to hear a basic run down on haps and their biotope and perhaps various breeding strategies

CrazyFishMama: what are the one's Z has that I love so much?  Meaning are they mbuna's or something else

RustyNut: Fish strategies

emartin: In a 75g I would do smaller species like Lethrinops, Aulonocara, some Protomelas, some Otopharynx, some Copadichromis sp, some Mchenga sp, some Nyassachromis sp, etc. There's a huge amount of fish that would work in that size tank

Rich B.: I have a ? but will wait for ed to catch up.

PhishNFilly: awesome, writing this down ty

emartin: I wouldn't put Protomelas spilonotus in there for example, I've personally had males exceed 12Ē. Big fish that get along with everybody but themselves

ZK1975: the ones with fry?  Those are Tanganyikan rock dwellers..   Brichardi

tchill93x: will be in the transcripts

PhishNFilly: ty chill

ZK1975: Yeah, Phish.. This conversation is recorded :)

tchill93x: :)

emartin: Currently I keep mostly open-water Haplochromines, like Tyrannochromis macrostoma Mbenjii (aka maculiceps), Lichnochromis acuticeps, Nyassachromis boadzulu Kanchedeza, Buccochromis rhoadesii, Tyrannochromis nigriventer Southern, Taeniolethrinops furcicauda ďChiofu LiwaniĒ, Copadichromis virginalis Gome (firecrest virginalis), etc. Those are some of the rarer stuff I keep.

emartin: I like the open water stuff better; they are more interesting with their behaviors. The Taeniolethrinops are a fun fish to keep, like love to sift sand and will use their mouths like shovels

emartin: I've had my larger Taeniolethrinops go down past their eyes digging into the sand, they really love it

AmayaOkami: open water? What does that mean?

emartin: well, deep water

AmayaOkami: oh kk

emartin: not along the shore

AmayaOkami: how do the deep water ones handle the tanks?

emartin: very well

emartin: currently my biggest species are in tanks that are 2ft tall to 30Ē tall

CrazyFishMama: do you keep them in community tanks or separate

emartin: right now community tanks but I am in the process of moving them into two 125g

RustyNut: Do you keep breeding groups or pairs, or?

emartin: right now I have a 265g, two 125g, a 120g, four 75g, 60g, 55g, and various smaller tanks

CrazyFishMama: I could live in a 125 gallon with my kids lol

emartin: It depends on the species, I have some fish as solo males, others I have pairs, others I have breeding groups

RustyNut: How long does maintenance take each week/biweekly?

CrazyFishMama: how do keep a tank that big clean

CrazyFishMama: sort of same question as Rusty

emartin: It varies, about 2-4 hours depending on how many water changes I am doing

Rich B.: I am looking into getting a group of around 10-12 Protomelas sp. ďSpilonotus TanzaniaĒ (Liuli).  Is this one that you are familiar with?  Would like some information on tank size, and after growing them out male to female ratio, and any other info that I would need for them to be content and breed.

CrazyFishMama: what about the bottom cleaning

emartin: With Protomelas spilonotus ďMara RocksĒ the two males I had did not tolerate each other once they both hit the 10Ē mark

emartin: despite being in a 7ftx2ftx30Ē tank, they started fighting all day every day until I had to sell one

Rich B.: Was this a species only tank?

emartin: they were damaging each otherís mouths pretty badly

emartin: no it was a community tank and they werenít even the dominant fish lol

emartin: with spilonotus Tanzania, my understand is that they are more laid back and the male I have now is pretty laid back

emartin: but then so were my P. spilonotus ďMara RocksĒ until they hit the 10Ē mark

RustyNut: I had that trouble with Protomelas taeniolatus

why_spyder: Ed - is there a species (or multiple species) that you hope to get in the future that are a 'must-have' for you?

emartin: so I'd keep an eye on your group, you may just have to deal with one male unless you can give the multiple males more than enough females to keep them busy!

Rich B.: lol, alright.  I have an empty 125 to start them out in, would a larger tank be in the future for them?

emartin: Right now I have a few must haves, Taeniochromis holotaenia (working on getting a wild caught group now actually, :)), Mylochromis epichorialis, Otopharynx sp. 'auromarginatus goldhead', Pallidochromis sp. ďchickenĒ, and that's it I think at the moment

emartin: 125g should be perfectly fine, but that could end up being a species tank depending on how rowdy the males get

emartin: I really, really want to get a hold of that Otopharynx I mentioned, but it is only located in Mozambique waters at very remote locations in deep water (so they would have to be decompressed)

Rich B.: That is the way I keep fish is in species only tanks.  Well I do have one show community tank.  Great, thanks for the info.

emartin: I talked with Ad Konings about it and he told me not to get my hopes up that collecting is very rarely ever done in Mozambique

RustyNut: What about other tank mates?  Is there anything either cichlid or non-cichlid that you would keep with your fish?

emartin: You can probably breed other fish in the same tank as the Protomelas; just keep an eye on aggression though

emartin: my two 10Ē males were bumping up the glass lids (which is when I decided one of them had to go)

emartin: when they were fighting

emartin: Rusty, with my fish or with Protomelas 'spilonotus tanzania'?

RustyNut: well both

emartin: in my 265g at the time with my Protomelas I had lots of other fish in the same tank: Synodontis decorus, Tyrannochromis nigriventer, Lichnochromis acuticeps, Exochochromis anagenys, etc

emartin: they definitely do get along with other fish

RustyNut: so they are mostly concerned with others of their own kind

emartin: I never bred any Protomelas so I have no idea how they get when breeding, but the two males I had I was getting worried they'd rip each other's jaws apart

emartin: yes exactly

Glaive: would you say it is within genus or more on a within species aggression?

ZK1975: I had a group of the Tanzanians, gorgeous fish, never got spawning time with them though.


emartin: for non cichlid fish, I keep pleco, Phyllonemus typus, Synodontis sp, botia histrionica, clown loaches, etc with my fish

emartin: they get along fine

emartin: I wouldnít put Phyllonemus in with any cichlid that gets 8" or bigger though, theyíd be an expensive snack

emartin: Actually Glaive my sulphurheads (the spilonotus) NEVER bothered my Protomelas steveni Mlowe wild female in the same tank

emartin: never even tried to breed with her

emartin: so I think it's definitely more a species thing

RustyNut: My spilonotus tried to take all the otopharanz females though!

emartin: there's a lot of variations in Protomelas, wildly different melanin patterns (Protomelas sp. 'solo', Protomelas steveni-types, Protomelas spilonotus, Protomelas kirkii, etc)

RustyNut: otophananx!

emartin: LOL

emartin: A determined male fish will mate with anything

Glaive: good knowledge to have, so nothing like Julies

emartin: I had a 3Ē male Placidochromis sp. jalo mate with one of my wild female Taeniolethrinops furcicauda

ZK1975: my Spilonotus never bothered anyone else or themselves and they were in with Flavus, Labs, ZRocks, Afra Jalo Reefs..

emartin: the spawn was not fertile but it was the craziest thing I ever saw since the two species were so different (let alone that the female Taeniolethrinops was 3x the size of him!)

Glaive: wow!

emartin: they had different melanin (Taeniolethrinops has stripes, Placidochromis sp jalo has spots), and completely different bodies too

emartin: I mean, there is no doubt in my mind that they knew they were separate species, especially the Taeniolethrinops wild female

emartin: it wasnít like Otopharynx spelaeotes confusing itself with a Stigmatochromis sp. female

RustyNut: maybe she had jungle fever

RustyNut: j/k

CrazyFishMama: rolf

emartin: haha

PhishNFilly: Q.  Diet/Food Source   What do you feed your haps?

RustyNut: Oh yeah and temperatures!  What temps do they like?

emartin: For prepared foods: Dainichi Cichlid formulas 1-3mm (Color Supreme and Ultima Krill), Hikari Massivore for the big Tyrannochromis and Buccochromis (9mm pellet :)), Ocean Nutrition Formula One and Two flakes and pellets, and various generic flakes

emartin: for frozen food I feed Glassworms, Spirulina Brine Shrimp (I prefer SFBB and OmegaSea Brands for the brine shrimp), Krill, Plankton (pacific krill), freshwater mysis shrimp, black mosquito larvae for fry

emartin: I like the dainichi pellets as they coat them with fresh vitamins and spirulina and krill uncooked.

emartin: NLS is just as good though

emartin: I just like giving my fish variety

ZK1975: I 2nd the dainichi comment.. I really enjoyed that food.. The fish did, too.

CrazyFishMama: here is a question where do you get your fish do you order from the internet?

AmayaOkami: wb

emartin: with temperatures I keep all my tanks at 79F, but sometimes I have stubborn wild fish that wonít breed, so I sometimes drop it over a couple hours to the lower 70s for a few tanks and then raise it back up to 82F, they almost always spawn within 1-2 weeks after that

emartin: I rarely buy from LFS

CrazyFishMama: well I am in luck there I still don't know what LFS stands for

emartin: the ones here in NJ, at least close to me, kind of suck with the Malawi cichlids. Over here it's mostly new world cichlids and Tanganyikan stuff

ZK1975: Any highly recommended online sellers?

emartin: LFS is local fish store

CrazyFishMama: ty

emartin: I buy frequently from Atlantis Tropical fish since I live just 2-2.5 hours south of them

emartin: the drive there is awesome; I do mail-order from them occasionally though

RustyNut: I highly recommend them as well

CrazyFishMama: do they ship? I am in PA on the border of NY I need to find a place to order from to get what I am really looking for

emartin: also AnubiasDesign, ValleyAquatics, Dykemyster Fish, Daves Rare Aquarium Fish, etc

CrazyFishMama: sorry you answered while I was typing

ZK1975: Well, for those of us in BFE..  We pretty well have to rely on high quality online sellers.  I've heard good things from Daves and I have dealt with Rapps and loved that experience.

RustyNut: CFM yes, and you are close

emartin: I havenít bought from this last guy since 2007 but when I did it was a good experience, TNT Cichlids

emartin: oh yeah Tangled Up in Cichlids (Jeff Rapps)

emartin: Iíve gotten some fish from him before, awesome guy

emartin: CrazyFishMama, Atlantis is in Gardiner, NY

emartin: very close to Newburgh, New Paltz, Poughkoupsie

emartin: they should be able to send you fish UPS Ground overnight

RustyNut: cheap!

emartin: I highly recommend visiting though; Peter's (the owner) facility is great

emartin: is their website

emartin: it just always works out, getting fish via mail order

emartin: better prices and better variety

emartin: unfortunately I donít have a local fish store like Dave's Fish like people in San Antonio have

emartin: :(

PhishNFilly: Q.  Ed have you ever been on a fishing expedition with Konings or others?

CrazyFishMama: I was checking out the Jeff guy his fish are some crazy looking ones

emartin: Nooo...just "expeditions" here in NJ collecting sunfish and perch LOL

PhishNFilly: lol ok ty

emartin: I want to go with Konings and Larry Johnson at some point though

RustyNut: we all do

ZK1975: CFM,  Rapps deals with Americans mostly.

emartin: Iíd have to get scuba lessons first, it would be a waste to go and not be scuba certified first

PhishNFilly: Q.  Do you have a website or Gallery where we can view your beautiful fish?

CrazyFishMama: oh good question Filly

emartin: not organized at all but yeah I have some pics up

emartin: Iíll start by getting a link for a video of my 265g when it was in its full glory back in 2008

PhishNFilly: thanks ed.

emartin: itís dangerous to just throw on the gear and give it a shot

Glaive: definitely Ed, a refresher would be much safer

DogWalker: getting certified is worth it. Always adds another dimension to any sunny vacation

emartin: and getting a HD waterproof video camera :)

Glaive: heck I would be in the swimming pool out back practicing with a camera lol

DogWalker: yes

AmayaOkami: I want to see that


emartin: turn your speakers down, the noise is loud

Glaive: there are some nice size beasts in that tank

emartin: If I ever go to Malawi it will be for at least 2 weeks, but I hear that costs $3-4k, and that doesn't include equipment (including camping equipment)

RustyNut: its only money

emartin: lol

RustyNut: Larry certainly isn't wealthy

PhishNFilly: awesome vid

Glaive: I know at one point when airfare was higher I was offered a 14 day trip for $5000, at the time it was a steal

emartin: Larry gets sponsored I think though

(If you notice this Larry, let us know and we'll add an update.)

emartin: I have no idea though

emartin: about how he affords it lol

emartin: he loves it though

emartin: Iím surprised there isnít a fish named after him yet

(Larry, why_spyder and glaive were joking about naming a fish after Larry a week or so before this chat. ;) )

PhishNFilly: Ed is it true Ad is only doing one more expedition then he's done?  Truth or Rumor?

Glaive: Larry would be the best one to ask Julia

emartin: I donít know but it sounds like a rumor because I also heard he was organizing another trip to Tanganyika

emartin: maybe thatís what you heard, one last trip to Tanganyika and then thatís it

emartin: heís not that old so I donít know if heís really going to call it quits or not

emartin: Stuart Grant and Dr Trewavas did what they did till they died!

Glaive: That might be the truth there Ed, the money and interest is in Malawi and Tanganyika is an older more stable lake, so less is happening

emartin: plus you have pirates, crocodiles, hippos, and some countries that arenít exactly American friendly

Glaive: Larry is Canadian ;)

emartin: ad is Dutch but he is also American now (I think)


(At this point in chat we got a typical CF hijack. Ed was a champ about it and just jumped in CF style with the rest of us. The chat does eventually resume.)


tbaker1010316: can someone help me

tbaker1010316: I have very high nitrite levels and do not know what to do

emartin: water changes

tbaker1010316: any help would be greatly appreciated

Glaive: add aquarium salt, 1 tablespoon/10 gallons

emartin: if you have fish in there, water changes immediately

tbaker1010316: I just did a 20 percent water change

Glaive: not buffers but table salt without additives

tbaker1010316: I do have fish in there

tbaker1010316: so table salt?

Glaive: rock salt, certain kosher salt and sea salt mixes, any NaCl salt without additives

tbaker1010316: I have aci freshwater salt

Glaive: read the label, while that additive is unlikely to harm the fish I prefer not take the changes

tbaker1010316: so will the aci freshwater salt help

Glaive: does the package list ingredients?

emartin: aci? you mean api?

RustyNut: yes

emartin: if itís api freshwater salt that is fine

tbaker1010316: and how long will it take for me fish to die with high nitrite levels

Glaive: depends on the fish and the amount of nitrite

tbaker1010316: sorry guys but I really appreciate the help I just donít want to lose my fish

Glaive: add the salt, mix it in a well rinsed glass full of tank water

Glaive: then pour the salt water into the tank

tbaker1010316: the nitrite is 10.0

Glaive: that should protect your fish up to 6.0 ppm nitrites

RustyNut: tbaker, nitrite burns the gills which is permanent, so acting fast is important

Glaive: ummm never mind, 1 tablespoon/ 5 gallons then

Glaive: incorrect rusty

RustyNut: ???

Glaive: I'll cover that in a bit

tbaker1010316: so how much salt should I put in right now to fix this?

Glaive: do another water change, 50%

tbaker1010316: 1 tablespoon to 5 gallons

AmayaOkami: rusty I learned REAL fast...donít debate this stuff...just nod and say yes dear

Glaive: then add 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water

RustyNut: AO- you see me debating?

Glaive: then when you do any subsequent water changes add the amount of salt you remove

sepratbill: Glaive slaps me when I call him dear

emartin: 10ppm nitrite is extremely high; Iím with glaive do another water change

AmayaOkami: LOL

Glaive: so if you change out 15 gallons of water you will add back 3 tablespoons of salt

Glaive: hopefully you will have caught it in time

emartin: also if you have time test your tap. Do you have town tap water or well water?

Glaive: baker, 50% water change, do not forget your water conditioner/dechlorinator

emartin: and any fish missing? a dead fish might be causing the spike

Glaive: good point Ed

Glaive: for everyone else ammonia physically burns the gills reducing their ability to exchange anything across the membrane...

Glaive: nitrite uses the chloride transport to enter the blood where the nitrite bonds to red blood cells in the place of oxygen

Glaive: those red blood cells become useless to the fish until they are naturally replaced

Glaive: adding salt counters this issue by the chloride in salt taking back its natural mechanism aka saturate the chloride so the nitrite cannot enter the blood

tbaker1010316: no dead fish

tbaker1010316: so I really have to do a 50 percent water change to fix this?

RustyNut: absolutely

Glaive: you need to do a 50% water change and then add the salt

emartin: to be honest I would do an even bigger water change

emartin: if you still have 10ppm of nitrite

Glaive: what size is the tank?

RustyNut: 75% is not out of the question

tbaker1010316: 55 gallon

Glaive: are your fish on the bottom of the tank ďbreathing hardĒ?

Glaive: I would have to agree on 75% being perfectly acceptable right now

RustyNut: despite me being old and confused earlier....  What Ammonia or nitrite buildup is called is a poisoning.... and any poisoning should immediately reduce the toxicity through large and immediate water changes... the Salt will only help them get through it...

Glaive: the salt will also only help nitrite and not ammonia

RustyNut: Correct

emartin: tbaker also test for ammonia

RustyNut: Ammonia is even more serious!

Glaive: so the consensus becomes 75% change on the tank and then 1 tablespoon of salt / 10 gallons

emartin: if thereís no more ammonia, then just removing the nitrite though water changes should solve the problem

Glaive: yes ammonia is typically the real killer, nitrite just gets the bad wrap... the toxicity difference is about 10x

RustyNut: There is of course always the use of a detoxifier such as PRIME

Glaive: if the only issue is nitrite salt will do the trick

emartin: I'm not convinced prime really detoxifies nitrite, rusty. On their website they say themselves they arenít sure

Glaive: tbaker, change out 30 gallons of water pronto, and then add 6 tablespoons of salt premixed in a glass of tank water

emartin: water changes really is the best remedy for that, id only use a conditioner for ammonia outbreaks

RustyNut: It definitely detoxifies ammonia

tbaker1010316: I have a small amount of Ammonia as well though

Glaive: baker, deep breath, large water change then add salt

Glaive: watch your fish and test water tomorrow

tbaker1010316: okay, Ammonia is .50

ZK1975: water changes are your friend :)

DoctorV: test daily and perform WCs daily if needed

emartin: Correction (for myself): on their website it says they arenít sure it detoxifies nitrates, but they say it does anyway

RustyNut: OK I am off to bed, thanks for the Chat Ed...  Nite all!


(The emergency assistance continues a little longer with more assurances from all around.)

(Then there is a short bit about water conditioners, I'm with Ed on this one (Alex).)


emartin: Why canít people just stick with proven conditions like amquel, novaqua, seachem prime, ultimate, chloramx, etc...

emartin: people just buy a $50 bucket of ChlorAm-X, it'll last you years if you just have a few tanks

emartin: plus if you overdose it, it stays active until itís spent


(Back to some fish talk, the chat kind of shifts gears here.)


CrazyFishMama: ok off topic for a second can anyone remember what the Blue one is that will get alone with the acei and the yellow lab I found one guy who has the first 2 would love to be able to order all from one person

CrazyFishMama: I think his mate is orange

Glaive: Metriaclima/Maylandia zebra?

CrazyFishMama: yes it was a zebra ty sorry looking at some of the places that were recommended

Glaive: estherae

DoctorV: it indeed does great with labs and acei - I have them all in my tank

CrazyFishMama: yes I want 3 kinds in my tank

DoctorV: however, it will mate with labs readily and gladly

Glaive: wb Ed

CrazyFishMama: lol that won't hurt my feelings

emartin: sorry my wifi kicked out for a second

PhishNFilly: wb

CrazyFishMama: the Dave's Rare Aquarium seems to have a great selection

CrazyFishMama: wb Ed

emartin: with daves

emartin: I highly recommend you ask him about air cargo shipping

emartin: it is much cheaper than FedEx

PhishNFilly: Ed, what filtration you use on your tanks?

emartin: like $55 versus $70-90

Glaive: cfm it all comes down to being responsible. if you get mixes and pass them on to the hobby many of us would consider that rather irresponsible

CrazyFishMama: ok thanks for the tip he has a really great selection

emartin: with filtration, I used to use canister filters but I hate them now

Glaive: reputable sources are worth the price difference

emartin: though I wouldnít mind one of those fluval g series filters

tbaker1010316: So what should I do if my levels are the same tomorrow when I check them?

ZK1975: Repeat. :)

DoctorV: repeat

emartin: currently I use sumps, Aquaclear power filters (HOBs), and sponge filters

CrazyFishMama: so Glaive you are saying if they interbreed don't sell them or give them to the pet store?

Glaive: yes cfm I am saying you should treat it that way

Glaive: Dave is also one of the few that talks to you about what you want to do and tries to give guidance; he gets big thumbs up from everyone here.

CrazyFishMama: ok noted thanks for the heads up

PhishNFilly: Ed thanks for that info

CrazyFishMama: I can't find Z's brichardi sure I am spelling it wrong

emartin: You live in Philadelphia I assume, right? (@ phishnfilly)

PhishNFilly: Michigan Ed.....Taylor Michigan

Glaive: if one can, sumps are the pinnacle of filtration

emartin: lol, anyway ask Dave about air cargo

emartin: youíd have to drive to the airport to pick it up

emartin: but it would be same day and much cheaper

PhishNFilly: metro airport is near me ten minutes away

emartin: is that a major airport?

PhishNFilly: yes very

emartin: there you go then!

emartin: Dave could ship from san Antonio airport to that one same day

PhishNFilly: I will have to consider that next time I order online, ty

emartin: plus, he can ship 2-3 boxes with no additional cost

emartin: not all mail order people will ship air cargo though

PhishNFilly: ty for that info as well

emartin: for example I doubt Atlantis would unless if it was a large order

Glaive: or they had enough requests come in that they need to do an airport trip

emartin: well I think the nearest major airport to them is either JFK or LaGuardia

emartin: there is a small one near them but I am not sure if that one does air cargo

Glaive: The next time I am at Neptune I will ask if they would do air freight, they have 3 major airports within about 40 minutes one within 10

emartin: I know they pick up their wild caught shipments at JFK

emartin: if they live 10minutes from a major airport there really is no reason why they couldnít

Glaive: I am certain that if they have not already thought of it just bringing it up would change their policy

Glaive: brb camera time, xenos are getting jiggy with it

emartin: lol, what species?

(Alex missed this during chat Xenotilapia bathyphilus.)

PhishNFilly: Ed recently a few of us have had mystery illnesses hit our tanks, have you ever had a major problem you just didnít know what was wrong?

PhishNFilly: fish loss I mean?

emartin: Iíve had massive fish loss alright, but it was an accident caused by me

emartin: I have had fish that I had trouble treating and eventually euthanized

PhishNFilly: ouch

ZK1975: EMartin,  I'm doing a 240.. stacking some decent size boulders on one end.. leaving about a 3x2 or 2x2 area of sand for some Lethrinops.  Going for an Afra species to hang out in the rocks and a Protomelas species to hang out in the open water...   haven't totally pinned down species yet but Iím excited

emartin: I have an idea what was wrong with them but wasnít able to cure them

tchill93x: lol Glaive..hope you get some good shots..Bye everyone....Need to get to bed...Thanks so much for coming Ed!

ZK1975: Driving everyone here crazy in the meantime cuz I can't commit on fish lol

PhishNFilly: chill goodnite!

emartin: <a href="" target="_blank" style="color:#00FFFF"><u></u></a>

emartin: <a href="" target="_blank" style="color:#00FFFF"><u></u></a>

emartin: <a href="" target="_blank" style="color:#00FFFF"><u></u></a>

emartin: :(

CrazyFishMama: :cry:

PhishNFilly: oh brother ed......big big sigh

emartin: that was in 2008 I think, pure negligence on my part. was doing a water change with a python

emartin: I positioned the python to drain to 50%

emartin: and then I went outside or another part of the house or something to do work

ZK1975: They sort of looks like my 135 when the power was out for 5 days in the winter..  all the fish huddled up together in groups to die

emartin: when I came back, the suction from the python brought it down to the very bottom of the tank

emartin: only 3 fish survived

emartin: really really sucked

PhishNFilly: oh good grief......that must have been devastating

Rich B.: for sure

PhishNFilly: how many fish in all?

emartin: careless mistake on my part, now I close the glass lid on the python hose to secure it at a particular point

emartin: I didnít count all the fish; it was like 90% of the fish you saw in my video though. It was I think 20lbs worth

PhishNFilly: ughhhhhhhhhh

emartin: that was in 2008 I believe

emartin: that was before I got interested in breeding fish

PhishNFilly: how long have you been in this hobby?

ZK1975: oh man..  I feel your pain.  at least you didn't have to fish your dead fish out of near freezing water in the middle of winter

PhishNFilly: Z sigh

emartin: the pleco in this pic survived and is huge now, the fish in this pic is a Mchenga conophoros male, he tried digging to get to deeper water

emartin: if I had just came back a few minutes earlier I couldíve stopped the siphon :(

CrazyFishMama: omg what is that orange thing next to it

PhishNFilly: that is a very good story, it can also be a learning story, and I might copy and put on my worst fish disaster story thread.

ZK1975: Ancistrus..  Bristlenose...

PhishNFilly: we all use pythons ....well most not all

emartin: lol ugly suckers arenít they?

Rich B.: lol

ZK1975: a face only a mother could love!

PhishNFilly: lol Z

Glaive: that is devastating Ed, truly painful, now if I may ask, as this affects a lot of newer hobbyists. You did not give up the hobby, what did you do to keep going after such a disaster?

emartin: a couple people on ECC offered me free fish, which was awesome. I really did almost leave the hobby after that

emartin: if that was my only tank I probably wouldíve

emartin: but I still had my 120g

emartin: I donít remember really, I blocked a lot of that memory out lol

emartin: I hate looking at those pics

CrazyFishMama: I bet

emartin: that one fish was a 9" Exochochromis anagenys male!!

ZK1975: I didn't take pics of my fish disaster.. I didn't want to remember it.

emartin: I guess time helped me out

emartin: and getting new fish

PhishNFilly: I donít think I could have regrouped from such a loss.   No I am positive I could not have moved on.

ZK1975: Yeah almost 2 years and I still haven't got back up to the stocking levels I used to have

CrazyFishMama: Daves Rare is all the way in Texas and he has everything I want

PhishNFilly: I lost five I raised from juveniles Ed and I am still not right about my Mbuna tank.

emartin: well when I first was keeping Malawi fish I just wanted show tanks

emartin: I wasnít interested in breeding

emartin: now I am

why_spyder: Alright, time to crash for me.  Thanks for the chat Ed; sorry I missed so much of it.

emartin: I actually hate my 265g now; it is a PIA to net fish out of

CrazyFishMama: my 35 gallon hex is the worst I come out soaking wet cause my arms are so little I end up with half my body in there

PhishNFilly: Ed I want to thank you for the time and information you gave us tonight.  It has been a pleasure.  I hope you come to the forum again.

PhishNFilly: thumbs up

emartin: I enjoyed being here

emartin: time flies, I can't believe its 11pm already!

CrazyFishMama: Thank you very much for coming

PhishNFilly: we had fun is why!

CrazyFishMama: I have so much to learn

Glaive: Ed is was very nice for you come on over and talk cichlids with us

Glaive: I apologize for the interruption and thank you for jumping into help

emartin: lol no problem

emartin: it was fun, made an otherwise normal day more interesting :)

Glaive: well if you like nitrite and cycling excitement ;)

CrazyFishMama: <a href="'s%20Cove.jpg" target="_blank" style="color:#0033FF"><u>'s%20Cove.jpg</u></a>

CrazyFishMama: that fish is pretty

PhishNFilly: lol

Glaive: baker, be not bashful it's all in a day here, you are not first with a problem nor will you be the last

Glaive: hopefully your fish come out okay and you can become as addicted as the rest of us

PhishNFilly: lolol

ZK1975: Yeah we get noobs in here all the time :)     at least u took the time to come in and ask!

ZK1975: We'll teach u what you need to know

Glaive: we were all noobs/newbs at some point

PhishNFilly: I am still a newb, I will never catch up

tbaker1010316: ok I just finished my water change

ZK1975: Yo Pan.

CrazyFishMama: Glaive did you see my problem earlier

(Alex missed it, caught it a day later.)

tbaker1010316: I did 75 percent and then added 8 tablespoons of salt


ZK1975: My arch nemesis is the photo contest lol how goes it?

CrazyFishMama: my ghost knife are nipping my angel fish and I have no tank set up to move either out of their tank

PhishNFilly: hello Pan ltns

CrazyFishMama: I have a fish bowl

PANTERA: Hey Philly

PhishNFilly: :)

ZK1975: PhillyCheese Steak.. mmmm

ZK1975: man now Iím hungry

PhishNFilly: :weird:

PANTERA: Eh it goes just stopped in to say hey

ZK1975: The latest 'swarm' split and relocated in the tank.. for a minute I was concerned those danged fish spawned AGAIN lol

CrazyFishMama: you can always mail me some :grin:

ZK1975: You're persistent, aren't ya! lol

CrazyFishMama: I am in love with your fish

CrazyFishMama: I think the one I found will make me happy I can't seem to find one closer looking

emartin: here's a pic of my wildcaught Nyassachromis boadzulu Kanchedeza spawning last april


emartin: holding female is on the top left

PANTERA: nice fish E

Rich B.: sweet

PhishNFilly: oh yes I can see that holding mom....nice pic Ed

PhishNFilly: so brown compared to the male

emartin: actually sheís silver

emartin: she must be in a shadow or something in that pic

PhishNFilly: well it could be my monitor

emartin: this wouldíve been an amazing shot if the Aulonocara stuartgranti Undu male didnít get in the way <a href="" target="_blank" style="color:#00FFFF"><u></u></a>

PhishNFilly: I can hear Alex yelling calibrate lol

emartin: you can see one of the females better at the top

ZK1975: that Undu male looks like an Usisya Flavescent..

emartin: theyíre all of the same regional area, so-called ďsteveniĒ types

ZK1975: the fins are blue, not black..  Looks like about the only diff.

emartin: Usisya, Undu, Wikihi, Hai Reef, Chiwindi, etc

emartin: yeah pretty much

ZK1975: I used to have a trio of Usisya..  Striking fish.

PhishNFilly: great pic

ZK1975: wouldn't mind having some Lemon Jakes

tbaker1010316: got a question for someone out there how can u best tell when ur fish are stressed and happy

PANTERA: off to bed for me 2 hour commute in the cover of darkness in the morning lol night everyone

tbaker1010316: Iím a newb sorry

PhishNFilly: goodnite Pan

emartin: Iím currently trying to breed this species

emartin: <a href="" target="_blank" style="color:#00FFFF"><u></u></a>

PhishNFilly: awesome fish

Glaive: wow those little guys have some pop

Rich B.: beautiful

PhishNFilly: Ed how can I say this without sounding say youíre trying to breed them.....well what can you do to help it along?

PhishNFilly: temp/etc etc

emartin: well right now the pair I have

emartin: is in a 20g temporary tank

emartin: theyíre going to get a 55g or 75g to use for breeding

PhishNFilly: ok I do see, do they prefer a certain substrate?

emartin: with diet, I like glassworms

emartin: SAND

emartin: never use gravel with cichlids, it is honestly the worst substrate

emartin: they love to sift sand\

PhishNFilly: I switched over to sand, I love it

emartin: and Utaka species (all Copadichromis, Nyassachromis, Mchenga, etc) make bowers

ZK1975: I'm going to try a Lethrinops species in the 240..  I can't wait

emartin: Taeniolethrinops!

emartin: Atlantis has some in stock I think now

emartin: awesome fish

emartin: this is one of my wild T. furcicauda females

emartin: <a href="" target="_blank" style="color:#00FFFF"><u></u></a>

emartin: I switched to sand in that tank surely; they were trying to sift through the crushed coral

emartin: that pic was taken in 2008 I believe

PhishNFilly: very nice colors

emartin: this is a male NOT in nuptial dress (not my pic)

emartin: they get about 12" long

CrazyFishMama: Ed where is this one located?

Rich B.: nice

emartin: you mean what state? South Carolina

PhishNFilly: Ed you mentioned they made bowers, can you please tell me what that is?

emartin: here's a pic off of google of a sand bower <a href="" target="_blank" style="color:#00FFFF"><u></u></a>

Rich B.: still breed in bare bottom tanks?

PhishNFilly: Oh my gosh yes I do see now, like a crater

emartin: it depends on the species

emartin: a lot of males in some species like to work up their testosterone building those castles

emartin: some will still breed in gravel tanks

emartin: it depends

emartin: I donít think that Cyathopharynx will breed in a bare bottom tank though

Rich B.: C. trewavasae?

emartin: the Tanganyikan feather fins

ZK1975: Would need lots of sand for all that

emartin: C. trewavasae should, but why not have sand? itís great

ZK1975: at some point they'll hit glass bottom :)

emartin: easy to clean

Glaive: a big sand fan here

Rich B.: with lots of tanks to clean bare bottom are fast and easy.

Rich B.: ;)

PhishNFilly: sand gives a fish tank a classy look

PhishNFilly: it turns it from a VW into a Lexus

PhishNFilly: lol

PhishNFilly: ;)

Rich B.: maybe just too lazy... more work.  lol

Glaive: well Rich one can also design a tank with a nice light bio load and just avoid too much cleaning

Glaive: my bio load rather light so my water change schedule is rather friendly

Rich B.: sure, nothing wrong with that

Glaive: if I were running a fish room I would have to switch to an auto system though

PhishNFilly: I do water changes twice a week, one fish, ten fish I would do it twice a week.

Glaive: of course if I were keeping fish that liked mud I would probably attempt to figure that one out lol

PhishNFilly: lol

emartin: like Gnathochromis permaxillaris?

emartin: if I am not mistaken that fish makes tunnels in mud when they spawn

emartin: I donít know how people manage to breed that one

PhishNFilly: going to do a search of that one.

CrazyFishMama: East Coast time here, have to get up in the morning have a great evening everyone

Glaive: I would try, it was more of a point I guess

CrazyFishMama: :d

Glaive: I do sand right now because my Tangs like it

emartin: haha


emartin: I should probably get going to, 11:35pm here

PhishNFilly: look at the lower lip on that fish!

PhishNFilly: awesome

Rich B.: thanks again Ed.

Glaive: <a href="" target="_blank" style="color:#9999FF"><u></u></a>

emartin: lol

Glaive: there's tonight's happy couple

emartin: nice!

PhishNFilly: ((((( ED )))))) thanks very much for sharing with us.

Glaive: just a quick crop and resize, will process the batch later

PhishNFilly: A +

Rich B.: look happy

sepratbill: doh! Just got back

sepratbill: thanks Ed!

sepratbill: looking forward to reading the log

emartin: my pleasure, it was fun being here

emartin: I'll see you all later

PhishNFilly: :roll:

Glaive: Ed, once again thanks for the chat, for jumping in and assisting baker and taking it all in stride

PhishNFilly: Goodnite

Glaive: it was a lot of fun

Glaive: you're welcome anytime

PhishNFilly: wow that was great.

Glaive: and that folks is the idea of a chat night

sepratbill: :)

PhishNFilly: wonderful

PhishNFilly: it went super

Glaive: sometimes it's open discussion and sometimes it's more of a lecture

Glaive: it just depends on the person

PhishNFilly: it was a bit of all Alex


Let me just thank Ed for joining in and leading everyone in a very enjoyable return of chat night. Ed it was great fun, donít be a stranger. For those of you who missed the chat and are reading this, say thanks to tchill for her editing assistance. And of course last but not least to one Why_spyder for organizing the chat.


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