Need suggestions on cleaning and sanitation, and new setup..

[Delow317]

First off I just wanted to say sup to everyone here. I'm new and this is my first post. I read alot of the articles here and I'd say this community seems alot more active than some of the ones I've been to before. Anyhow that's why I registered. I'm in the process of stripping down my 55/60 gallon (whatever it is) tank, and starting over fresh with some more Central Americans. I've been keeping cichlids for about 13 years now and I think I would consider myself generally knowledgeable. Anyhow, I was planning on spending the following monday and tuesday doing this so any suggestions or advice before monday would greatly be apreciated. Thanks, and here's my story:

Last September I got rid of my 8 inch red devil that I've had for two years in my 60 gallon tank. I then decided to move the tank in my room and set up a central american community tank instead. I bought 1 baby Dempsey, firemouth, Salvani, and a Convict plus a $40 Royal Pleco! Five fish in a 60 gallon tank with an undergravel filter, two individual Hagan air pumps, two Marineland Emporor 280 power filters, and the highest grade carbon I could find. I had one peice of bogwood on the right and enough rocks to offer several different territories (maybe not enough for Africans, but definetly enough for 4 cichlids and a pleco).

To make a long story short, two months later my Dempsey ends up killing 3 of my 4 other fish but leaves the Royal Pleco alone. He was about 3 1/2" and had a temperment like my old Devils, Mags, and Buttocofferi's I used to keep back in the day. This pissed me off to the point that I ended up getting rid of him and keeping my pleco.

After taking him back to the aquarium store, I bought 2 baby convicts and 4 baby firemouths. I waited a week and everything was fine, so I decided to get 3 more firemouths. Three days after this I noticed ick on some of the fishes. I know this was ick because I remember it from when I first started out keeping goldfish. Funny thing is none of my fish have ever gotton sick through diseases and died on me since my newbie days way back then. Really!

Anyhow I went out and bought some ick medicine in the liquid form and repeated the dose every 48 hrs after it went away and came back again after a week or so. It seems that after the 2nd infestation started the medicine wasn't doing **** anymore and for the first time in over 10 years I ended up losing all my fish including my $40 pleco! :x

I don't overfeed my fish and I always perform regular maintainance: carbon every month, 20% of the water every 2 to 4 weeks, I test the water quality every week (ie. Ammonia, Ph, Nitrite). Everything was perfect! Temp was kept around 78 to 80 degrees, ph around 7.5 to 8 ppm, and ammonia and nitrite were always reading zero.

Anyway here's where my question comes in. I just started to empty the water and siphon the crap out of the water and I noticed these little bugs, almost the size of small fleas! :shock: As soon as I pulled out one of the undergravel filter plates I saw hundreds of these bugs under the plate on the bottom of the glass. Wtf are these? If anyone has any ideas please let me know.

I plan on stripping down and cleaning the tank the same way I've been doing for years. My only concern is those bugs or the ick coming back again after I wash the gravel and clean the tank and filters again. I'll also plan on seeding it with some bacteria culture because I know whenever you strip down a tank completly and set it up again its like buying a new tank again and it takes months for the nitrogen cycle to fully function again.

After the water is out I strain all the gravel in a strainer under the hottest tap water, then put it in a clean 5 gal bucket untill the tank and filters are clean. I'll then clean both of the Emporers and thier impellers and haul the tank to the back yard to rinse it out with the hose while wiping it real good with a small soft sponge. After its all dried and the undergravel filter plates are clean, I'll set it up again as always. Is this how most other peeps clean their tanks? Or is there something you guys do different? :?: My only concern is those bugs or the ick returning in my newly set up tank. Running the gravel under hot water and cleaning everything the normal way should stop the ick and bugs from returning, right?

I'm going to wait for any replys and advice untill monday before I set it up again. Please someone who has experienced any of these problems, please help! Sorry about this post being soooo long (especially for my 1st post).

Peace

[Rex Karr]

Welcome to the forums, and sorry for the late reply. It's probably to late, but I'll write in anyways.

I have no idea what the little bugs are, but they don't sound good. Cleaning the tank out the way you have said sounds like it will certainly take care of the bugs and ich though.

Here are some tips that may help you.

Ditch the undergravel filter plates. Undergravel filters aren't very affective for large American cichlids. Power filters that hang on the back are usually cheap and will be much more effective.

Change more water more often. You can get by on what your doing, but 30% or more once a week will keep the tank a lot cleaner and also help get rid of ich (although I'm sure you have that taken care of by cleaning the tank).

And useing a thinner layer of substrate will allow you to keep it cleaner, and make sure the bugs (What ever they may be) don't return. Although you may already be useing a thin layer (I didn't know so a threw it out there anyways).

Well I hope you have better luck the 3rd time you try to start out fresh.
Rex

[fish-eyed-fool]

I agree with Rex on this one:

Ditch the undergravel setup. Get yourself an AquaClear hang-on-back filter and a canister filter as well (I like Fluval, but I'm sure they're all good). I also have a regular power head with a sponge filter attachment that I periodically run to pick up bigger stuff (usually after a water change and gravel vaccuming).

You might also want to throw out your old gravel. It's cheap to replace, so why not be on the safe side and get rid of it?

[Delow317]

Thanks Rex and Fish-Eye. Actually it wasn't too late and I just finished cleaning the tank and its back in my room. Anyhow I didn't ditch the gravel, I boiled it instead using a pot and strainer. Took a couple of hours but I'm sure its worth it. 20mins at a time, lil by lil. Do you think this helped sanitize everything?

The tank I took outside and with a soft sponge and a lil vinegar I cleaned the salt deposits on the top and a lil inside the upper rim. I only used about 2 capfulls of vinegar and only poured it on the sponge (not in the tank) I rinsed the thing about 6 or 7 times and there is no trace of any smell of the vinegar. So I think I'm ok with that.

That's all I've done so far. Tomorrow I was going to boil and/or bleach any rocks that were in there. Although I'm kinda scared about the bleaching part. I might just throw all the rocks away cause they are green and look awful now.

As far as what you both recommended about ditching the old Lee's undergravel set up, I have some questions regarding that. Basically I know that the big fish dig and that unless you're constantly keeping the plates covered, its almost useless. Especially when I'm using two Hagan air pumps instead of powerheads. I guess my reasoning behind the undergravel was because I thought it wouldn't hurt anything. Not only that I kinda prefer (if i'm going to have airation) the uplift tubes to just having airline tubing running down the sides of the tank. As well as the fact that the uplift elbows stops the pressure of the bubbles and kinda lessens any salt deposits that might accumulate on the top of the tank. Anyhow thats not such a big deal i know. I mean I'm not really sure what kind of fish I'm going to keep yet. I just have it narrowed down to the following:
1) 1 solitary large chichlid- either a Mag, Devil, Buttocofferi, Depsey, etc.
2) Another group of firemouths- hopefully ending up with atleast 4 fish in a tank of this size i hope.
3) Or a large community of Convicts- hopefully purchasing 3 or 4 to start but no more than a dozen or so babies (from the same brood).

I am seriously considering ditching the undergravel filters but if I do decide just to keep a community of convicts or fire mouths, wouldn't that be of some benefit to them? Either way I can just set up the undergravel filter and take it out later as they get bigger right? No harm done? What do you think?

Oh and if i do that It will still be filtered with 2 Marienland Emporor 280 power filters. Please let me know if that is enough filtration alone for either a convict/and/or/firemouth community or for a large devil or mag.

Thanks again.
Peace

[fish-eyed-fool]

[quote:83968ea939="Delow317"]I am seriously considering ditching the undergravel filters but if I do decide just to keep a community of convicts or fire mouths, wouldn't that be of some benefit to them? Either way I can just set up the undergravel filter and take it out later as they get bigger right? No harm done? What do you think?[/quote:83968ea939]

I'm not sure how one type of filter would specifically benefit convicts or firemouths. You could set up the undergravel and then remove it, but it's a real pain in the ass (at least to me). Also, you really *should* completely break down and clean the udergravel plates every 4-6 months (and more often with the bigger cichlids), which is also a major pain in the ass. You have to do the same with canisters and hang-on-backs, but they are easier to deal with since they are external.

Also, I get the impression that you are hell-bent on using air pumps. Why? You don't really need them for anything specific. All the aeration of the water is done at the surface, so as long as you have a fair amount of surface agitation, you're fine. The only other thing they are good for is circulating the water, which won't be a problem if you have a moderatley powerful hang-on-back and/or a canister or powerhead.

[Delow317]

Actually I'm not hell bent on using air pumps and I understand that the surface agitation works the same as airation. I just happend to have those thats about the only reason for using them? If I decide on any fish that gets 8' or bigger and who constantly digs, then I'll go without the undergravel. My only question is about convicts and firemouths. They would benefit from one right? Since firemouths never dig, its just a matter of keeping the gravel even with the convicts.

Either way those Emporer filters that have with the biowheels is plenty of filtration even for a large foot long fish right? I would have put two of the full size Emporors on the top but they wont fit on my tank unless i cut the top of the plexi. As far as canister filters go, I didn't like the experience I had with my fluval 403. What a mess! I have heard that some of the Ehime canisters are virtually leak-proof but very exp. And as far as power heads go, you cant use them without an undergravel filter? right?

Either way I just wanted to know what you thought about my two power filters and if that's good enough.

Thanks

[Rex Karr]

Firemouths do dig. They are in the Thorichthys family, which are all known to sift gravel for food particles. The 2 power filters should work fine for whatever you decide on. And yes powerheads can be used without the undergavel filter. They just hang in the tank near the top and pump water.

Good Luck

[fish-eyed-fool]

[quote:3f6e19b489="Delow317"]As far as canister filters go, I didn't like the experience I had with my fluval 403. What a mess! I have heard that some of the Ehime canisters are virtually leak-proof but very exp. And as far as power heads go, you cant use them without an undergravel filter? right?

Either way I just wanted to know what you thought about my two power filters and if that's good enough.[/quote:3f6e19b489]

I have a Fluval 204 and it hasn't leaked a drop. It's also fairly easy to clean, in my opinion, and dead quiet. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

You can use a power head without an undergravel to create a current and/or with an attached filter to pick up large detritus.

I think the two filters you have will probably do the job.

[finz]

Convicts dig pits to put thier fry in after they hatch. If the pit goes anywhere near the UGF plates, the fry will get sucked down. just my 2 cents worth :wink:

[Delow317]

I guess I just never saw my firemouths digging? :oops:

Either way if I decided on the convicts, I guess there will deffinetly be breeding no matter what I do to stop it? And even if the ug is only powered by air pumps you still think that could suck the fry under? I'm probably not going to use them after hearing all this anyways. Thanks

[mdemers883]

Yeah, I would ditch the UGF, they are notorious for having a bunch of crap accumulate under them and ruining your water quality. The bio-wheels on your filters are great for keeping your ammonia down. Be careful adding fish to your tank, after boiling your substrate you killed a major portion of your beneficial bacteria. IF you haven't already I would let the tank run a few days with your established filters on it to get a cycle going. IF you do decide to go with a canister filter go with the ehiem, they are more money than a fluval but much better quality, and to get them cheap check out www.bigalsonline.com


Mark

[chc]

IMHO......

Stay away from the UGF and the canisters for cichlids (especially large ones). Both are nutrient traps. The two filters you have are fine (Emperor 280's) if you are changing out the cartridges frequently enough. You may want to add a sponge filter or two to assist with the biofiltration (you can run them off your air pump). The kind that form an "L" shape can be hidden well enough, but you may need two of those to equal the effectiveness of one large Hydro Sponge. I like the idea of using power heads also to keep the debris stirred up. Perhaps you could use a small one to drive one of the sponge filters.

As far as fish go, in a 55 gal. I tend to think of 6-8" as the maximum size of the largest fish. So, you have many choices here for a solitary "featured" species. Then I'd go with a flock of convicts and give them plenty of cover in which to breed and hide. Convicts may be the perfect fish as they are beautiful (especially the females), breed readily, and have all the personality of their large cousins.

If it were me, I'd go with a group of convicts and a nice 6-8" feature fish (hopefully that eats convict babies!) like a grammodes, istlantum, salvini, octofasciatum, etc.

[Delow317]

Thanks for the help fellas. However, I kinda made things easier on myself as far as maintenance goes with my tank. I only have 2 fish now, My 3 1/2 Red Devil and a Pleco. Less bioload to worry about now anyhow. Well, atleast till he gets bigger, then I should be changing my water at the rate of like 50% every week? lol
Later.

[chc]

We should probably post a "how to" portion that describes what everyone needs for a given tank type. I think it's safe to say in the case of CA Cichlids:
1. thin substrate (no UGF!)
2. easily serviced power filters (preferrably with bio-wheels) or
overflow to wet/dry
3. extra flow provided by powerheads
4. Python water changer
5. prefilters on intakes if using canister filters
6. etc. etc.