Another dead S. Multi!

[CichlidPete]

Has anybody got any ideas on this one? Water is fine. I have lost 5 Multis from the same tank in the last few weeks. They all basically go the same way. 12 hours or so of lethargy followed by increased problems swimming. They are dead within a day or so. None of the other fish in the tank (multis, mbuna fry) show ANY symptoms. None of the mbuna have died, just multis.

I noticed with the last one that the areas under the head and anus are reddened (see pics) there is no swelling. BTW the white thing on his side is just a peice of gravel from when I netted him.

Thanks in advance.

[img:a2b65890eb]http://www.cichlidgallery.com/albums/PetesPetPics/Fish_012.sized.jpg[/img:a2b65890eb]

[img:a2b65890eb]http://www.cichlidgallery.com/albums/PetesPetPics/Fish_005.sized.jpg[/img:a2b65890eb]

[img:a2b65890eb]http://www.cichlidgallery.com/albums/PetesPetPics/Fish_008.sized.jpg[/img:a2b65890eb]

[Rex Karr]

It makes me think of some kind of intestinal parasites.

[SGypsyMermaid]

rex may have hit upon the problem; i'm not sure if it's just because the fish is out of water, but the belly looks a little concave. the fish doesn't look as 'full' in the midsection as i would expect. maybe you should feed anti-parasite food for a week or so.

[CichlidPete]

OK that is a new idea at least! I'll try it. I'll go by our only LFS and see if they have any. Any specific brands drugs?

I guess being on an island I need to set up a better fist aid kit for the fishies.

Hey, that is a good idea for a post :)

Thanks, Pete

[SGypsyMermaid]

i think it's tetra, but i'm not sure--if your lfs doesn't have it--you can get it from fishybis@aol.com--she's a very reputable aquabid seller.

[Cichlid Jeans]

Need some observations of pre-bonk behaviour to rule out various things. The resistance of the other species is curious -- unless they're all more mature. A parasite would affect all the fish in the tank more or less equally, but you'd expect fry to die off first if it was a bacteriological infection.

[Cichlid Jeans]

What's that white lump on the side behind the dorsal :?: :?: :?:

[CichlidPete]

This is only affecting the multis who are the oldest in the tank...about 7 months I guess. The other fish are mbuna fry who were spawned here and are in the tank to growout, which they are nicely.

All the syno are on the thin side though not emaciated like the one in the pics. I'll try to get a few pics of the others tonight and post them. All are eating very well.

Day 1: Fry noticed to be less active, not really swimming about unless scarred or eating.

Day 2: Fry lethargic, either resting on bottom or floating head up near surface. no resp. distress noted. Fry will become more active and return to bottom of tank for food when offered.

Day 3: Fry dead

Hope that helps, I am leaning toward the parasite thing despite the cats being the only species affected. There must be some form of species suscepitility issue.

I am trying to find Discomed or flubedazole to soak black worms in and feed to these guys but can't find any of the drugs or worms where I live so I am open to other ideas.

Pete

[SGypsyMermaid]

did you mean 'cat' instead of 'fry' when you were listing the daily behavior?--cuz i thought you said the fry were fine. if the cats are eating well, but are still emaciated, then it probably is an intestinal parasite.

[CichlidPete]

CJ the last line in the original post was "BTW the white thing on his side is just a peice of gravel from when I netted him. " :)

SGM: I guess I did. They eat but are growing slowly and don't get fat. Then again the adults in my 75 aren't FAT either. It is hard to say how much they really eat. They swim about on the bottom in typical feeding behavior but with micro pellets I can't really tell how much they eat.

[Cichlid Jeans]

Sorry -- I missed that point about the gravel. When I view Cichlid Forums with Netscape, the pics overlap the post text.

Is the whitish slime in the photos water on the camera lens or on the fry? If the fry have a thin white slime coating -- then it may be slimey disease, which catfish fry in growout tanks are apparently prone to. (This is based on reading, not experience: my synos don't breed [sigh!]).

Clinical symptoms:
[quote:781d5c0cda]Fry float vertically at the water surface and have pale gills. They exhibit rotting of the skin, fins, and the
area around the lips and barbels. There are needle-point sized haemorrhages scattered over the entire body surface. Sometimes the fry swim in a swirling motion and, if observed closely, the body will have a slough of white, cloudy mucous on it.
Causes of infection: Trichodina [and some other parasites]. Fry infected with trichodinids will have a thin white film of mucus on the skin. Trichodinids will infect the skin and gills, causing irritation to the fry. Eventually the parasites induce small haemorrhages on the skin. When the fish are seriously ill theywill have fin and gill rot.[/quote:781d5c0cda]
Treatment with formalin is supposed to be quickly effective.

[CichlidPete]

The white area is apparently artifact from the cameras flash. I just checked the body (morbid I know SGM) and there wasn't/isn't anything like that present.

[jnorris]

If you had a microscope you could open up the tract and look for parasites. I would be willing to bet it is some sort to intestinal parasite.

[SGypsyMermaid]

eeeewww!! well, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

[jnorris]

Hey I could go into my stories of med school and dissecting large African Mammals from zoos to see what killed them. But I have spared you of all that.

[SGypsyMermaid]

and thank you very much for keeping that to yourself! :( :?

[CichlidPete]

Damn Jonathan now you mention that! I could have frozen the stiff and packed it in dry ice and shipped it to you for disection :P

Thanks to input from SEVERAL sources I am:

Treating for parasites with Discomed soaked blood worms twice a day along with normal feedings. I figure if it is a parasite it will be cured and if they are just underfed the blood worms will help.

Pete

[SGypsyMermaid]

i don't know--i think that i read somewhere that worms can give fish diarrhea--could you maybe alternate the food that you're feeding that is soaked in the medicine?(hope that's not too garbled to understand)

[CichlidPete]

It almost was! They are getting flake and pellets 2X day and the medicated worms 2X day. Is that what you were trying to say? :twisted:

Pete

[SGypsyMermaid]

yup. :oops:

[CichlidPete]

Or did you mean to medicate one of the dry food feedings instead? [b:ad6e3ea039]Now I am confused.[/b:ad6e3ea039]

[jnorris]

I could be the Quincy of Aquarium fish! I don't think that would pay.....

Perhaps I should keep it at a hobbie level!

[SGypsyMermaid]

well, actually--i did mean that. i think bloodworms every day might be too much--so i was suggesting medicating the dry food and alternating days. in my opinion--you really should feed worms only once a week. now that i think about it--if you've been feeding them worms every day all along--they may have pooped themselves to death!

[SGypsyMermaid]

i think jonathan's wig is flipping.

[jnorris]

Since we are on this discussion, what are some things to watch out for as far as brine shrimp go?

[CichlidPete]

[quote:27e4ea87e0="SGypsyMermaid"]if you've been feeding them worms every day all along--they may have pooped themselves to death![/quote:27e4ea87e0]

Never saw a worm till after this all started.

[SGypsyMermaid]

i don't think that you have to worry about the brine shrimp--though i wouldn't feed it to pseudotropheus on a daily basis. mine get it several times a week but always heavily diluted with spirulina. worms tend to be high in fat--very rich food, so not good for every day.

[jnorris]

Well I ordered the new tank. It should be here by next week. I got a 110 gallon tall. I need to start looking for some really good rocks to put verticle.

Gypsy would you use an underground filter or not. I am leaning towards not. I am going to make a mixture of rocks sand and crushed corel.

What would you do?

[SGypsyMermaid]

i would say no to the undergravel filter. i would put 2 aquaclear five hundreds on it. if you use a pile of porous rock, that will increase the potential surface area for nitrifying bacteria even more.

[SGypsyMermaid]

i use holey rock, lace rock, and slate, but i am partial to tufa and dead coral/ reef rock(more porous=more surface area, buffers the water, and not as heavy as slate and limestone).

[jnorris]

I am going for current.....I am getting 650s and then a bio wheel. After working my ass off for the last 6 months I might as well do it well.

I was going to mix Texas holie rocks with lava and then put shells in the bottom for the breeders. Hopfully the filtration and lava will prevent me from doing weekly water changes. I would like to get them up to twice a month.

I might stick with smaller specimines and let them grow up with eachother.

It seems like when large fish are introduced the aggression in far greater than with the smaller ones. They grow like weeds anyway.

[SGypsyMermaid]

sounds like a plan. 8)