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GG0415
09-15-2004, 12:23 PM
Hello everyone, I am new to this forum and very happy to be a member. I need help identifying this fish. A friend who owns a LFS gave it to me a few days ago. He has no clue what it is so he decided not to sell it. It has its own tank right now because it's very aggressive and if it's a cross/hybrid then I won't even introduce it to my community tank.

Male cichlid
Color yellow with black markings all over
Size about 5 inches
Would attack when approached and likes to dig (typical cichlid).


Attached are 2 pictures of the fish. Sorry for the quality.


http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d732b3127cceb6d08be05a7c0000002610

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d732b3127cceb6d08f99db370000003610

bevoman
09-15-2004, 03:31 PM
midas.

bevoman
09-15-2004, 03:31 PM
midas hybrid I meant.

GG0415
09-15-2004, 03:53 PM
Thank you for your reply. Would you have an idea what the crossbreed would be ( ex. midas & festae)?

RedParrotBubbles85
09-15-2004, 04:09 PM
its body shape makes it look like it is crossed with a jack dempsey but that could be the picture.

bevoman
09-15-2004, 04:49 PM
I would say midas & devil.

GG0415
09-15-2004, 05:04 PM
I'll try and take a better picture tonight but that's how the body looks like in person. The color is more bright too. I'm not really good with pictures.

Jason_S
09-15-2004, 06:08 PM
I agree with bevo. That looks like a standard midasxdevil cross commonly seen in most lfs. I wouldn't be too quick to call it a male though. Midas and devils (and crosses) can be hard to sex.

z rock
09-15-2004, 06:57 PM
It looks like my Midas did when I first got it from Petsmart. For the first couple days it had the stripes then,they go through some color changes.
http://cichlidforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8538

I've noticed that the fish called midas seem to be white while the red devils are....well....red. I guess a cross would end up being red and white....there is a 10" one at my LFS that is red and white. The way they change colors and have been crossed for so long who knows what proportions of which one they will ultimately end up with?

Jason_S
09-15-2004, 09:57 PM
both midas and red devil can go through many color changes throughout their life. they can wind up any combination of white, orange, red, grey or black. I'd love to have a white midas with some orange. Or even more a mostly black with some orange but those are hard to find. :D

GG0415
09-15-2004, 11:39 PM
Thanks for all your responses. I hope it's just a midas and not a hybrid. I called my friend who gave this to me earlier and asked him for more info. He told me that a few months ago he was breeding a pair of midas in a 240 g community tank. The pair was with a festae and a jaguar. The only reason he was not sure about this one is because it was the most aggressive out of the fry and it looked different from the others. He had to separate it because it was killing its siblings. That's what he told me....I can only base my info from what he told me.

Rex Karr
09-16-2004, 06:54 AM
Its Amphilophus citrinellus AKA the Midas Cichlid. Forget that hybrid shibby. That Citrinellus looks more like a pure blood like than the vast mojority that I see pictures of on this site. The coloration is awesome, but won't last :( I've had many with similar coloration.

bevoman
09-16-2004, 07:24 AM
I wanted to say that Rex, just was not confident enough in myself. You can tell by my first post. Then I let myself get intimidated by myself.

Jason_S
09-16-2004, 07:56 PM
I've always replied to "Is this a devil or a Midas?" threads by saying if you didn't get from an importer or reputable dealer then most likely it's a mix. I've never told anyone that theirs is pure just by looking at it because I've seen a lot of varying info on what true Midas and true devils look like.

As for this fish, the main thing that made me wonder is that I though at 5" (assuming we're talking SL) the fish would be a bit taller. It looks to be a bit elongated which I always associated with A. labiatus. :)

Rudy
09-17-2004, 05:27 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/istlanum/S2010070.jpg

Check this fish out. It is a pure lab!

Some of the characteristics don't always apply.

How Rex can look at those pic and say pure midas is beyond me, but Rex knows his devils and that would be a midas.

Nice looking fish!:ok:

Jason_S
09-18-2004, 12:01 AM
Rudy, the fish in the pic you linked to is a pure labiatum.:confused:

That fish looks exactly like cichlidscene's "Bighead"...a pure barred citrinellum. your fish matches everything I've read about pure citrinellum as far as body shape, length, beak shape and lenght and lips. :confused: :confused:




:)

Rudy
09-18-2004, 04:45 AM
Rudy, the fish in the pic you linked to is a pure labiatum.

Bizarre isn't it. The guy who has it got it from Rapps. Spent most of the time defending the fact that it was not a cit until Jeff "cleared things up".

It is a lab...:)

Jason_S
09-18-2004, 05:13 AM
I'm just wondering if it's possible whoever collected those and shipped them to rapp's might have misidentified them or grabbed a group of juveniles in an area where both citrinellum and labiatum are common. The 2 species have been found together and even hybridized in the wild, so I don't think it's too farfetched an idea.

If that really is a pure labiatum then I'd love to talk to those guys to find out how they can tell them apart. :)

Rex Karr
09-18-2004, 05:44 AM
Dom's fish, the one pictured, is like the super freak of labiatum. Its massively fat but still identifiable as a lab.

Rudy
09-18-2004, 06:53 AM
I was going to say that I am sure Rex will say something as he knows the fish, and the owner. Guess he beat me to it.

chc
09-18-2004, 10:49 PM
I still have trouble believing that is a lab (the one Rudy posted). There is nothing more lab than cit about it IMO. I know that Jeff identified it as a lab, but he was responding to the questions about the source. Without any background information, I feel certain he'd say it was a cit. I think there may have been a mix up somewhere along the line (or the wild hybrid issue is in play). Or, that's just a freakin' fat fish!

I have may labs of verifiable lineage myself, and the difference between them and cits is obvious..... never a chance to confuse the two once they're fully grown. Here are two fat wild males. While they have nuchal humps, they are of a different type than those seen in citrinellus.

chc
09-18-2004, 10:54 PM
http://www.cichlidforums.com/postimages/2004-09-18/67987-001.jpg

http://www.cichlidforums.com/postimages/2004-09-18/67987-002.jpg


And a female (also wild); note the elongation of the body.
http://www.cichlidforums.com/postimages/2004-09-18/67987-003.jpg



Here is an F1 male with the largest hump I've seen in some time. Note the cleft in the forehead. Cits have a more convex overall shape to the forehead.
http://www.cichlidforums.com/postimages/2004-09-18/67987-004.jpg

Jason_S
09-19-2004, 12:08 AM
I still have trouble believing that is a lab (the one Rudy posted). There is nothing more lab than cit about it IMO. I know that Jeff identified it as a lab, but he was responding to the questions about the source. Without any background information, I feel certain he'd say it was a cit. I think there may have been a mix up somewhere along the line (or the wild hybrid issue is in play). Or, that's just a freakin' fat fish!

I agree. :) I'm not just trying to be difficult or argumentative but that fish looks like a pure citrinellum. But the body proportion (height to length) is spot on for a citrinellum, along with the short midas-like beak and small lips. the sheer girth of the fish and the small lips also look just like a citrinellum. But, that's just my opinion, and I'm by no means an expert. :)

Rex Karr
09-19-2004, 07:13 AM
Honestly guys, I believe Dom's fish is just a super fat Labiatum. Here's the story from my point of view. That fish and many others came from a spawning of F0 Labiatus in Jeff's tank. Dom and I both bought some of these F1 fish back around January/Febuary 2002. I've been following the pics of this fish ever since it was 3-4". In the Beginning it was indistinguishable from any other pure Labiatum. Even until a size of 9" or more it looked just like a Labiatum. Only recently has the fish taken on its massive appearance. I'll bet anthing that this fish is just the product of lazy fish kept in a small 75g tank and fed way more than it really needs. Excess fat deposits do crazy things to a fish. I bet that fish is as squishy as they come :)

PS, look again, that fishes lips aren't all that small. They are just dwarfed by its massive body. Plus it still shows the median lobes.

chc
09-19-2004, 09:15 AM
Do you have access to any other pictures of that fish (at a younger age)?

BTW, even Jeff has received wrongly identified fish, just mentioned it the other day in a thread. But if that's the only picture of that fish, I can agree it may just be a porker!

Rex Karr
09-19-2004, 02:32 PM
Give me until tomarrow and I'll try to get some pics of him at a smaller size.

I'm sure Jeff has recieved wrongly identified fish. But recieveing wrongly identified fish is one thing. Breeding them and selling the offspring under the incorrect name is another. How does Jeff know that recieved the wrong fish before? Because he's the man and can tell the difference before he breeds them and disperses the wrong fish himself.

Anythings possible, I'll try to get the juvie pics as soon as I can. I just hope Dom hasn't erased them off his computer :)

chc
09-19-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Rex Karr
How does Jeff know that recieved the wrong fish before? Because he's the man and can tell the difference before he breeds them and disperses the wrong fish himself.


Not completely true....... He recently found out he'd been supplied with a group of mistakenly identified juvies. He gave a few away when they were still little guys, but they turned out to be something else. I'll look for the thread where he described the situation (it's on another board).

Don't get me wrong though. That's one case in many thousands of transactions. Jeff's credibility is spotless!

chc
09-19-2004, 03:04 PM
I cut and pasted this from another site (fyi: lab, in this case, means labridens, not labiatus):


JEFF SAID:
Just rec'd a heads up to this thread-thanks Mule.
The juv. 'blue labs' I sold about 6-10 months ago were from the author of this thread. As babies of 1" size, I had no idea they were hybrid fish. Just recently, I have seen the pics of the parents of these fish. That is when I was sure they were not a true species.
The photos of blue labs taken of my big pair seen at this site and on my web page are the right fish. However, I have not had fry from them in years, and actually no longer have the fish.
My apologies for any confusion this may have caused. Neither the breeder of these fish, nor myself, had any idea that these fish were not real labs till just recently.

Rex Karr
09-19-2004, 03:31 PM
Ah, ok, but I'm talking about fish that he bred himself, not juvies that he recieved to resell. All Central American cichlids look the same at 1" ;)

Jason_S
09-19-2004, 08:18 PM
Ah, ok, but I'm talking about fish that he bred himself, not juvies that he recieved to resell.\

Yeah, actually growing them up, breeding them and re-selling them is quite different. I could see him receiving wrongly identified fish and mistakenly selling them but no way could I see him breeding them and re-selling them under the wrong ID.

I honestly thought the fish in question had been sold as F0, I didn't realize it was the product of one of his pairs. :) That being said, I no longer question the ID of the fish, though I would like to see the pics when it was younger just to see how it has changed over the years. :) And now that you mention it Rex, I can see where the beak might have been longer when it was younger and as the body expanded the beak would appear shorter. That definitely is a very chunky fish. :D

chc
09-19-2004, 08:33 PM
Here's what the owner himself said on another site:

"I bought from Jeff Rapps 3 years ago and they were labled F1 Barred labiatus and he already said he remembered having them around that time."

Not quite a definitive response, but close enough to end the issue for me............ almost! :wink:

Here's what the owner later said on that same site:

"Actually, it's a flowerhorn. I just love screwing with peoples heads! Making this up, that up...... whatever it takes to muddle the whole citrinellus group....... It's what I live for!"





O.K..... so I may have made up that last bit. :sygypsy:

z rock
09-19-2004, 09:20 PM
I've read in Cichlid news it's possible to go fishing for Midas in Florida these days.

z rock
09-19-2004, 10:01 PM
Ahh! Here we go. Some of you have probably seen this link before.
http://www.cichlidae.com/articles/a106.php

Most of these fish are labiatus "red devils". Say's most of the available citrinellum were decendents from Barlow's studies. So they would be rare in the hobby.

Rex Karr
09-20-2004, 06:42 AM
Z Rock, its a 30 year old article ;)

z rock
09-20-2004, 08:54 AM
Yea, it did seem rather dated.

Here's a clipping from another article.

We uncovered allopatric genetic differentiation of populations of A. citrinellus from different lakes and distant locations within Lake Managua and, more interestingly, incipient genetic differentiation of several sympatric populations based on colouration (in A. citrinellus and A. labiatus) but not on the morphology of the pharyngeal jaws (in A. citrinellus).

I noticed the wild labiatus on Jeff Raps site have some fat lips. (It's amazing how much they resemble a young orange blotched nile perch.)

Allopatric differentiation of populations. Wouldn't that mean that the apperance of a Midas would vary from one crater lake to another crater lake, or even from one side of lake Managua to the other?

Sounds like they should have been tacking a specific location on to the end of the name of these fish like they do Africans.

The question's would be,does all the midas from any single location have the exact same coloration? Do the wild labiatus with the fat lips only come from one certain area or lake ?