Question Re: Cycling the African Tank

[merlyn2221]

Hello again, Cichlidophiles! This is a most AWESOME place, with very knowledgable people, thank goodness.

Here follows my epic of questions:

I have now changed 90% of my tank's water (see my previous post) and wonder (stupidly, I feel), should I cycle the tank again as if just setting up anew? I originally used a product called "Niter-Bacter" for a freshwater tank. Can I use the same again? :?

My filters are both already established, but 90% is a tremendous amount of water. Someone I know who keeps Africans told me he cycled his 220 gal. with the same "Niter-Bacter," only the one for saltwater. (This whole salt thing is blowing my mind! When do I add it? I know when I set up the tank...but, do I need to add it when I just top off the tank? No, right? Do I also add it during water changes? Yes, right? Why am I putting this stuff in the tank, anyway? To add minerals, right? If I add salt, do I still need to add trace minerals, too? Yes, right? Aaaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhh) :shock:

I read everything I could regarding cycling in this forum, but found no post that really applied to my situation. (Of course I could have missed something.)

I am truly greatful to anyone who can offer some advice, especially before I lose what little sanity I have left.

I'd like to have fish again one of these days!

[SGypsyMermaid]

(This whole salt thing is blowing my mind! When do I add it? I know when I set up the
tank...but, do I need to add it when I just top off the tank? No, right? Do I also add it during water
changes? Yes, right? Why am I putting this stuff in the tank, anyway? To add minerals, right? If I
add salt, do I still need to add trace minerals, too? Yes, right? Aaaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhh)

no--you never add salt when topping off. yes--you do add it when doing water changes, but only enough to treat the new water. if you have calcareous rock and substrate like tufa rock, coral rock, or limestone--you do not need salt.

[jnorris]

What salt are you currently using? I will be glad to tell you how much to use and when. One of the main trace minerals you need to introduce to your african tank is iodine. See Gypsys post on the substrate and rocks above.

Personally I think you will be starting from scratch.

As far as cycling there are several methods to use and I am sure there are many ways to skin a cat.
I personally add a few heathy but not so expensive fish to my tank to get the process going. This is after 24 hours, when the chlorine and whatever else in your water leaves the tank by evaporation (keep in mind some things don't ever leave the tank with the exception of water changes ie heavy metals ect). You may also want to add some chlorine buffer like amquel or any of the other products out there

During this time (2-3 weeks) I monitor the PH, Ammonia, and Nitrate levels until they all drop off the scale (0 ppm). I also do the normal 20% water changes (keep in close mind the amount of salt and buffer to use.... (AND ONLY USE THE AMOUNT THAT YOU NEED FOR THE WATER THAT YOU TAKE OUT!!!! :!: :!: ) During this time monitor the fishes (cannaries in a coal mine) health.

Once you notice the Ammonia and then Nitrate levels drop off..... SLOWLY add more desirable fish.

During this whole time closely monitor your PH, Ammonia, and Nitrate levels, if the Ammonia or Nitrates get unreasonably high then you should do a water change (within reason).

I personally have noticed that the nitrification process (for me) only takes 2 weeks. The key to this whole task is don't add too much of anything (remember too little is better than too much).

-If you don't have one as of yet go out and get a freashwater test kit.

-Keep your water temperature between 78-80 Farenheit

-PH to 8.0 for Malawi and 8.5 for Tanganyikan (Assuming you want africans still) I achieve this by using Malawi Buffer and Tanganyikan Buffer and some crushed coral.

-Nitrates and Ammonia should be 0 PPM (unless your tank is still cycling).

-Do weekly water changes 15-20% and during this time REPLACE the needed salt, buffer, and dechlorifying solution (i.e amquel).

-Also during the cycling duration don't overfeed your fish (you shouldn't overfeed anyway but this time is the most critical)

During this process you might notice algea blooms and bacteria blooms they have always dropped off for me in a weeks time.

also check this link out... http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Nitrification.htm

or do a search of nitrification at google

Jonathan

[merlyn2221]

Johnathan:

I will be using Seachem's Malawi/Victoria Buffer, Seachem's Cichlid Lake Salt (I was using just regular aquarium salt, prior to all my troubles), and will be changing my current substrate to half sand (the playsand kind that Home Depot carries) and CaribSea's African Cichlid Mix Aquarium Gravel. This gravel is supposed to most closely resemble the lake bottoms of the African Rift Lakes...or so it says it does.

I have looked at the pics of your gorgeous tanks and know for sure that I am going to keep Lake Malawi Cichlids. My plan is to get 9 fish for this 55 gal. setup.

I have purchased a large piece of lace rock, and will be reusing some "fake" rocks I already have, as well as some other rocks (similar to slate) that are considered "neutral" in fishkeeping. The fish will have plenty of places to hide. I will also be keeping some plastic plants that I already have, mostly by my choice, since I have read that Malawi Cichlids don't really live with plants in nature.

I will be running the two filters I currently have (Fluval 304 and Emperor double BioWheel). My lighting will be the same - 4 Triton "Full Spectrum" flourescent bulbs. Everything I read seems to say these should be ok, but I am wondering about these showing off the fishes best color.

My tap water currently tests at: pH 7.6 (this can go as high as 8.2 at times), total hardness 175 ppm, total alkalinity 80 ppm, Ammonia 0 ppm, Nitites 0 ppm, Nitrates, 0 ppm, Phosphates 60 ppm. In the summer these readings all change (because I live only 4 miles from the beach) because of the summer tourism. I used to run the water through a deionizer when I had freshwater tropicals, but was hoping not to have to do this anymore...there's just too much "doctoring" to the water then to keep it at a neutral pH for tropicals.

I had two, two year old Plecos, one common (about 7' long) and one that was supposed to be a "Clown" (about 10" long), as well as a two year old Pangasius Catfish or Iridescent Shark (about 8" long), but I had to give them all away. They did not do well with the change in pH from 7 to 8, although I did the change gradually over some weeks. Plus the Plecos make a huge stringy mess in the tank!

Ever here of a Debawi Catfish? I like the look of it because it reminds me of my Pangasius. I have seen it kept with Malawis and it is available to me locally. Got any ideas as to what type of "bottom feeders" I could get? The only ones I ever see are loaches.

If you have any suggestions or advice, I would appreciate it.

Eileen

P.S. Send help soon, I'm driving my husband crazy with these fish!

:lol:

[jnorris]

My Girlfriend is already there and driving back...lol Both her and my cat (feline) have considered me a traitor of sorts.

Actually I have started to suppliment my tanks with Malawi and Tanganyikan catfish. Keep in mind that these tend to be distructive towards egg laying non-catfish esp mbuna. I care little since I am not out to breed fish.

The current catfish I have are 3....no 4 now Synodontis multipunctatus (Tanganyikan cuckoo catfish) :lol: I loose track...

This catfish is native to Lake Tanganyika. Most Synodontis seem to be most well adapted if they have several like tankmates. Breeding behavior is much like its name suggest, it will scatter Malawi (or Tanganyikan as I am informed) cichlid eggs. During this time the male and female will deposit sperm and eggs while the moothbroading cichlid is picking the eggs up (or as she suspects that she dropped). Infact they are the ones dropped by the Synodontis multipunctatus and the female cichlid picks all the eggs up (inc. the Synodontis). Here is a link http://www.vatoelvis.com/S_multipunctatus.html pay close attention to the movie shots for this on the bottom section. The cats eggs have a lesser degistion period so they sometimes eat the rest of the broad. One more reason to clear the holding female of her eggs prior to the time. Yet another story......

In my malawi tank I have some new Synodontis njassae (4). They seem more active during the day than the aforementioned Syno. This would be the Cat that I would recommend for your tank. Upside-down cat would be good if you can find it. (I can't locally :x ) Help me out Finz......

It is cool looking at the cats with the tank lights off and some other backlit light on. This is when you can actually see them. The just recently started to appear during the day.

It sounds like your off to a good new start. I recommend that you add fish gradually and perhaps the cats should be the last tankmates to add.

As far as filtration is concerned. I see no issues, just make sure you don't change all the filters at once and monitor the parameters of the tank (i.e. nitrates ammonia and PH).

As far as rocks go. A) Be careful when you put them in your tank. B) I have started to hide small terra cotta pots in rocks and they seem to love them (a good DYI). C) make sure they have plenty of hiding holes. If you need to suppliment with more smaller pieces of Lace rock or other stuff go for it.

If you need a list of Synodontis I just bought a book that has a great section on cats. Chances are you can't get most of these and they say there are over 100 species of Synodontis in this world. But the list no less is as follows;

Synodontis

alberti
batesil
budgeti
camelopardalis
congicus
decorus
eupterus
flavitaeniatus
ligirostris
multipuctatus
nigriventris
nigrita
notatus
njassae
ornatipinnis
petricola
pleurops
schoutedeni
victotiae

I did searches on the cat you suggested and I come up with a loss on the scientific name.

Another good person to ask about Cats is Gypsy and Rex. Of course Jonah will always be the realist...... :D Boiler Tom and Finz are great too... Tom esp...

I love YOU GUYS!!!!

[merlyn2221]

Johnathan:

Thanks so much for your advice. I do hope I am off to a good start. I miss my fish! I am especially greatful for your list of cats. I love them and would really like to have them in the new setup.

I am sure that I will have some other question in the future, but so far I will be working on my tank! :D

Eileen

[jnorris]

Once you get the basic knowledge it is easy.....

Do you have a test kit yet?

[Gir]

I have always been told that I need to add a little more salt (1tbspn per 5 gallons) every water change, because when you take out water your taking out the salt that was in that part of water.

[jnorris]

It depends on the salt. I use 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons for africans. Dr Wellfish Aquarium salt and or Seachem African rift salt.

I like the seachem because it has other trace elements iodine ect ect..

Dr wellfish could to...It just doesn't say it on the box.

And for water changes I only add the amount for the water I take out. 30% water change for a 90 gallon is three tablespoons.

It is always better to add too little than too much.

[merlyn2221]

I got the tank up and running. All seems to be good so far. :party:

I have put 3 Synodontis eupterus (only 2 of which I have seen since I got them) in the tank. I put them in last, as you suggested, jnorris, along with a male and female Red Zebra, an Electric Blue johanni, a male and female yellow labidochromis, 2 other africans that the lfs calls "African cichlids - species" (they are blue striped or banded on a whitish silver background) and one feisty aratus.

I am still trying to get the genus and species correct for all these fish, and the correct spellings, so please pardon their "store names" or misspelled names.

I will be including pictures of them...as soon as I can figure out how to attach them here. Hope they will be seen. Will post the address for pics when I get it.

Let me know, you guys, if you know anything about these fish. I have read 5 books already on Africans, and everything I can about them on the internet (well, not everything), but sometimes you know better! :D

[jnorris]

It could be a Kenyi (a pseudotropeus). It also could be a few others. Your getting some aggressive fish, I would keep that in mind. The Auratus can be a terror.

[fOx]

correction on the above post... it should say, "the auratas IS a terror!"

I have one and he is a total sh*t disturbor...

fOx

[merlyn2221]

Have noticed that the Auratus is a pain in the a**. He takes over everybody's housing, chases them for no reason, etc.
He is the "tank nazi" (hope not to offend anyone calling him that).

I am thinking I made a mistake in buying him. :?

I have a 20 gallon I could set up, but I'd rather not.

Well, I'll see what happens. I have read about Venustus, too, as being even more agressive than Auratus. Glad I didn't get one!!

JNorris: I have to give you an updated list of the fish...because, of course, I had to have just a few more!
:lol:

[merlyn2221]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot...

My husband was actually the one who wanted more. I think I have converted him to my piscene "religion." I'm glad too, because I'm in love with these cichlids! :wink:

[jnorris]

How big is your tank again? I forget. You could try Alonocara if you can find them and like them.

[SGypsyMermaid]

i disagree here...aulonocara are not good tankmates for aggressive mbuna...i think that you should limit yourself to mbuna, since haps are likely to get shredded in that tank.

[jnorris]

I have a few pseudotropheus in my tank and they seem ok with the aulonocata. They seem to be ok. I did get rid of the aratus and a few others. Mostly I do have Haps though.

It depends on the current size and the proposed size of the Aulonocara. And long term they all get pretty big. I bought my Aulonocara big to start off with.

Gypsy statement is correct.....What are your long term plans for this tank?

[jonah]

My only experience with Aulonacara was nyassae and they were systematically eliminated by my mbuna. I had kenyii and auratus in the tank and never had trouble with any of them, my cobalts on the other hand were absolute bastards. :(

[jnorris]

I have Kenyii and Pseudotrop Saulosi in there. My peacocks are much bigger than them. If they get aggressive I wouldn't think twice about geting rid of the mbuna.

[merlyn2221]

I thought the mbuna were not all of the same level of agression.
I saw a chart online somewhere that rated mbuna according to this scale.
I tried to choose my fish based on this and several other sources. I realize that the auratus is agressive, but he is also one of the smaller fish in my tank. I have him in a 55 gal. with larger mbuna: kenyi, a beautiful johanni, the as yet unidentified fish, and a new "Snow White" socolofi (which is a georgeous fish...looks like an australian opal to me). They do seem to all be inhabiting separate areas of the tank, and I have given them numerous "houses" to inhabit. They each seem to defend their own small territory. Of course they will grow (and already have) so I will probably go to a larger tank, like maybe a 150 gal. I am watching them all closely for any problems.

[SGypsyMermaid]

I thought the mbuna were not all of the same level of agression.
I saw a chart online somewhere that rated mbuna according to this scale.
I tried to choose my fish based on this and several other sources. I realize that the auratus is agressive, but he is also one of the smaller fish in my tank. I have him in a 55 gal. with larger mbuna: kenyi, a beautiful johanni, the as yet unidentified fish, and a new "Snow White" socolofi (which is a georgeous fish...looks like an australian opal to me). They

what did we say to suggest that mbuna do not have different aggression levels?--they do, indeed...and the crew that you have chosen tend to be very aggressive(though different people have had different experiences with individual fish.

[jnorris]

It also depends on the size of your tank as well. The more overall space they have the less territorial they get. I noticed a big difference between a 20 gallon and a 90 gallon.

Of course this is also dependant on the species as well. Some species just don't mix well.

If it works do it.......

[merlyn2221]

what did we say to suggest that mbuna do not have different aggression levels?--they do, indeed...and the crew that you have chosen tend to be very aggressive(though different people have had different experiences with individual fish. :confused:

I think you misunderstood my post. There was nothing anyone said that suggested they do not have different levels of agression. Remember, I was talking about a chart I had seen on line which presented this very thing - levels of aggression.

I was trying to get information about different people's experience with these fish. I do not profess to all there is to know regarding these beautiful creatures, so I have been talking to many people and reading everything I can get my hands on regarding these fish. The only real serious aggression issue mentioned constantly has always been about the auratus and venustus. I did realize, of course, before setting up this tank of mbuna, that they were all of an aggressive nature to varying degrees. I am carefully monitoring all activity and if a problem occurs, that fish will find a new home with someone I know at the lfs. These arrangements have already been made "just in case."

As I am new to cichlids, but not to fishkeeping, I was hoping for some practical advice on the subject, nothing more than that.

Thank you again to everyone in the forum who have helped me thus far; it has been a very valuable experience. :)

[jnorris]

lol

Just so your adding the right amount of salt....joke:)

If you do get a 150 you should have plenty of room for a wide variety of species. Sounds like your doing a great job with the current tank.

Do you see your catfish during the day?

[SGypsyMermaid]

what did we say to I think you misunderstood my post. There was nothing anyone said that suggested they do not have different levels of agression. Remember, I was talking about a chart I had seen on line which presented this very thing - levels of aggression.

actually, i did misunderstand your post...if i had read it as a response to the one immediately preceding it, i would have understood. :oops:

[merlyn2221]

SGypsy:
No harm, no foul. :) If it weren't for you I wouldn't know what the real name of my Debawi catfish is! :wink:

JNorris:
I only see two of my three catfish during the day. How do I know which ones I see? I don't! :lol: The third one is really shy, but if I get the flashlight out and search at night, I do find three. This leads me to a funny story...sort of.
My husband has appointed himself "rock architect" for the tank. (Amazing that he is involved at all!) So we get some new lace rock and lava rock. While I am out he takes out some "fake" rocks, to which the two synos have stuck themselves. He tells me when I get home he had to shake them off before he took the fake rocks out. Apparently everybody didn't vacate, though, because a few hours later, when I came home and went to clean the fake stuff in the bucket, at the bottom, hanging out in the corner (in about 2 inches of water) is the third syno I thought had died the day after I got them all.
So now I'm overjoyed that the one syno is alive, and livid that my husband never checked to see that they were all off their favorite housing. My husband is now banned forever from going near the tank! :rofl2:

Anyway, 3 Spot (as I have named him) seems to be fine.

[jnorris]

Catfish are pretty indistructable. I have heard stories of them being able to survive out of water for long periods of time.

So what is your current list of fish? Has your tank cycled yet. It seems to be about three to four weeks old. Then again with my work schedule I am still writing 2002 on my checks (a little out of touch).

Did you ever figure out the mystery fish?

Jonathan

[merlyn2221]

Ok Johnathan, here is the list so far:
2 Labidochromis caeruleus (1 male, 1 female)
2 Maylandia lombardoi (uncertain sex-one seems to be hiding his color)
2 Maylandia estherae (1 male, 1 female) (Red Zebras)
1 Melanochromis auratus (male)
1 Melanochromis johannii (male)
1 Nimbochromis venustus (uncertain sex-current coloration seems female)
1 Pseudotropheus socolofi "Snow White" (uncertain sex)
3 Synodontis eupterus (I LOVE these little guys!)
1 Pareutropius buffei (Debawi Catfish) (I love this little guy, too!)

They all seem to be getting along so far. And yes, I'm putting in the right amount of salt. :lol:

The mystery fish seemed to be the venustus...aaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh
not so sure I want to keep her (him) based on what I've read, but she is shy so far.

The tank apparently did not need to cycle. Remember it had already been set up with one filter, so it did fine after I put the canister on it. I monitor my water every other day. Everything is good. I am a little concerned about the ph, it's a little high at 8.4, but it is partially because of the substrate. I might put the smallest amount of peat in the canister filter the next time I change it.

What do you think of all this?

So how come no one ever told me these fish will eat you out of house and home??? :P They are always hungry! As soon as they see me, they fly up to the top of the tank. They are really funny and I'm really enjoying them. So are my cats, who of course think I set up this tank just for them.

[jnorris]

CHRIST....someone has gone SHOPPING...

Watch your Ammonia levels dear....

[merlyn2221]

Yes, I have spent quite a bit over the past few weeks! This is it for this tank!

Want to ask a question of you and pick your brain a little...

I put up a post under Cichlid Clinic about my yellow lab. It has a deformed lip and has had 2 seizures to date, and has recovered, it seems.

Ever hear of this? No one has responded to my post so far, so I'm in the dark.

[jnorris]

Do a water change (the planned one)and don't include buffer...For Malawi that is a bit high, however with my digital PH monitor it seems to drop and rise during the day (not that signifigantly). Peat isn't needed nor would I recommend this....It will reduce your PH too much.

Ok how many more propsals can I write tonight..lol

I am still working....3 weeks solid lol

Ask yourself these questions...

What is my PH of the water when it comes out (plan accordingly)
Are you using crushed coral as a buffer in your filters (or media)?
Also add the buffer (if you are using it) gradually. It raises the PH signifigantly.

Your fish can live in 9.0, I wouldn't recommend it at all but they can withstand it. I kept my malawi and tangs in the same tank at 8.6 so you will be fine in the short run.

Add to0 little before you add to much........

[jnorris]

I really wish I could read my fishes minds. Funny thing is I know more about yellow labs in the dog form. How can you tell if a fish has seizures anyway?

WHat are you currently feeding...you need a website..lol

[jnorris]

Keep them hungry.....Their biological nature is to eat until they die.....Don't ever feed them more than they can eat in 5 minutes. If you or your spouse works from home you can feed them small amounts often.

Its cool that your hubbie is into it...make him get his own tanks...lol

Mine is coming around quickly...she used to hate them. But that was due to the death toll...she hates death....Can we blame her?

[SGypsyMermaid]

I am a little concerned about the ph, it's a little high at 8.4, but it is partially because of the substrate. I might put the smallest amount of peat in the
canister filter the next time I change it.



i wouldn't worry about that ph...8.4 is fine. i know what you mean about the food...i buy flakes and pellets by the pound, now! about those cats...you could probably make a very nourishing stew for your cichlids if you cooked them with some veggies...just a thought. :twisted:

[jnorris]

Ya what about feeding cats? The food really never hits bottom, I have tried on occasion Algea discs and they hover over these.

Any words of wisdom Gypsy?

[merlyn2221]

SGypsy:

Hope you weren't referring to my felines, but rather my Synos :lol:

What kind of stew are you talking about? Like shredded Romaine, spinach, peas??

Please enlighten!

[merlyn2221]

Johnathan:

I feed my Synos those sinking algae discs, but break them up into little pieces because if I don't their tankmates play soccerl with them all over the tank. At least broken up everyone gets some...and the other food doesn't hit the tank bottom ever!

These are not fish, they're pigs with fins. :lol:

And you're right...I need a website. Speaking of that, got any ideas of how to put a picture up here in a post? I tried it, but nothing came out. Gotta try it again.

I'm not doing the peat. Didn't add buffer last water change (had a hunch not to do it) and pH has come down over the week to 8.2. Will do as you suggest, as well, regarding the chemicals in general. Better to err on the side of caution. Only thing I do add regularly is that damn SALT! :rofl:

[SGypsyMermaid]

SGypsy:

Hope you weren't referring to my felines, but rather my Synos :lol:

What kind of stew are you talking about? Like shredded Romaine, spinach, peas??

Please enlighten!

feline stew, of course... :sygypsy:

[merlyn2221]

But wouldn't that be CANNIBALISM if the Syno Cats ate them?

:rofl:

[SGypsyMermaid]

you cannot put those furred thingys in the same category as the elegant synodontis catfish...the only thing that they have in common is whiskers.(she sniffs haughtily) :P