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Big Whattie
02-23-2004, 04:33 PM
would a frontosa and oscar do well together please reply

Rudy
02-23-2004, 05:25 PM
No...As Chet said in the American forum

Big Whattie
02-23-2004, 05:30 PM
o ok
sorry i didn't see where he said it sorry rudy

Rudy
02-23-2004, 05:32 PM
No problem. At all

Watcher
02-25-2004, 12:12 PM
they will be fine

Rex Karr
02-25-2004, 12:53 PM
Yeah, or not.

Watcher
02-25-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Rex Karr
Yeah, or not.

why not o master of all?

Rex Karr
02-25-2004, 05:53 PM
Why would they? Why did you even reply? How many Oscars have you raised to maturity? How many Frontosa? Did you keep these 2 species together in the same aquarium for an extended period of time and observe that Frontosa actually thrive at a pH of 6.8?

I doubt it. Temperament wise, this combo might be possible, but I feel that the drastically different water parameters will ultimately lead to the demise of one of the species.

Watcher
02-25-2004, 07:13 PM
you need to calm down a bit buddy. you get to bent out of shape when someone don't agree with you. these fish have never seen their native lakes. they are bred and raised in pet stores with neutral water conditions. every fish store i have seen have the water paramiters the same for all tanks including the one i work at.

those 2 fish will be fine together.

jennigypsy
02-25-2004, 07:53 PM
whattie...
I guess it's a matter of opinion...there's probably been some success in mixing, by an experienced keeper.
but remember..the MODERATORS are moderators for a reason...most of them have made the mistakes we are all asking about and are able to give advice based on experience..good and bad.
Just because a fish can 'survive' in one environment, doesn't necessarily mean it will 'thrive'....IMO...

Rex Karr
02-25-2004, 09:37 PM
I'm not getting bent out of shape because you don't agree with me. I'm getting bent out of shape because I'm tired of people giving decisive responses to a question and topic that they know nothing about.

Being raised in neutral water will not make Frontosa perfectly adapted to that pH. Sure, you can keep a Frontosa in 7.0 pH water. He will probably look all washed out and live for a few years. But why would any one want to do that? If you can't provide the correct environment, don't keep the fish.

Freddy J
02-25-2004, 11:46 PM
Great advice Rex. Keep up the good work.

Watcher
02-26-2004, 06:33 PM
k rex. whatever. you are the mod god.

Rex Karr
02-26-2004, 10:44 PM
Watcher, its basic fish keeping knowledge that extreme hard water fish don't mix with soft water fish. You can setup your own Oscar/Frontosa tank or do whatever you would like, but you've been asking a lot of questions lately to be giving advice on a topic which you have no experiance with.

If water conditions are so unimportant then it would seem strange that any aquarium book will list the prefered pH and hardness for the fish in the book. Water test kits would also be rather useless if this was the case.

If you disagree with me, thats great, but you need to support your claim with something more than "every fish store i have seen have the water paramiters the same for all tanks including the one i work at.".

Just because an LFS does something does not make it correct. And housing a fish under incorrect conditions is more acceptable if it is only for a couple weeks, as in most fish stores. Most fish stores sell Pacu out of a 10 gallon tank. That does not make a 10g tank a good permanent enclosure. Most fish stores sell those Pacu to people with 55g aquariums, that doesn't make a 55g a suitable tank.

Rex Karr
02-26-2004, 10:46 PM
Also, the attitude is not appreciated.

Watcher
02-27-2004, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Rex Karr
Also, the attitude is not appreciated.

that is kind of the point. these fish are all bred in captivity in tanks and i will say hardly ever will anyone get a fish that comes directly from the lakes. these fish have lived there entire lives in the same conditions as has their parents and their parents and so on. the fish are fine.

cichgirl
02-27-2004, 08:15 AM
Sorry to butt in.... Watcher, I understand your theory, and yes, many fish can adapt in the short term. Some fish are extremely adaptable, some aren't and you can't change how the fish evolved. If the water conditions are not proper for the species, the fish will most likely succomb after a couple of years to some sort of secondary infection. You might at that point chalk the loss up to the infection where in reality the fish's immune system is weakened by improper water conditions that it was being kept in-- therefore the fish was doomed to begin with. Thousands of years cannot be changed in a fish store or even over a few generations. I have kept with some success and some failure certain Africans with certain Americans (not this particular mix) and it isn't a good idea to just recommend it to anyone. If the person trying to mix aren't even familiar with or can't recognize symptoms of acidosis or alkalosis, they shouldn't attempt it at all. The fish depend solely on us to survive - they can't change their own environment as much as they can't change their gills. I would definately hesitate to recommend possible doom to someone else's fish on a theory.

Rudy
02-27-2004, 09:18 AM
Watcher,

I can't say I totally disagree with you on the fact that these fish are captive bred and have been for a long time. I use amixed mbuna as targets in my tanks The do fine and I think enjoy it.

I do however think Frontosa are are one fish that still very susceptible fish and have to be cared for properly to survive. Has anyone ever gone into a fish store and seen a large frontosa floating at the top of the tank not able to get down? They are a deep water fish and have been for many years. When they suck air from eating floating pellets they can't expell it. This would most likely be a problem in an oscar tank as there is quite a bit of cometition for food. Feeding would be a huge issue in ther. Fronts also like very clean water. Most Oscar tank owners are struggling to keep it clean.

All in all all it is just a bad idea. There are tons of fish are that are way more suitable for room mates.

chc
02-27-2004, 12:38 PM
I don't know how much worth my comment will have, but I would NEVER point to a practice at an LFS as an example of good husbandry. I know of few, if any, LFSs that exhibit good husbandry. Many or most are pathetic examples of fish keeping, and any argument that refers to them in the support of a position is going to suffer.

More to the issue, I think most of us here are involved in this forum to share and learn ways to better care for our fish. I absolutely would discourage anyone to mix the two fish in question. Sort of to the point of many, it is more an issue of surviving vs. thriving (seems like there's a lot of these questions lately). I could not feel like much of a person if I knew the creatures in my care weren't kept to the best of my ability (Wow! That's deep!). I mean, how should you keep a dog?.... tied to the fence?..... It'll certainly survive, but will it thrive?

Also, I wanted to voice my appreciation for Rex's efforts. I find his contributions here to be consistently informed and on the mark.

Rudy
02-27-2004, 01:01 PM
Also, I wanted to voice my appreciation for Rex's efforts. I find his contributions here to be consistently informed and on the mark.

I completely agree with that CHC. I am sure most would.

cichgirl
02-27-2004, 02:09 PM
I completely agree, Rudy...

Poet8102
02-28-2004, 09:50 AM
As do I...

Vip
03-10-2004, 07:42 AM
In my tank where i have two oscar's and a blood parrot, i condition the water, ph always good, i do everything i can to make the water as good as i can for oscar's, and i get nothing but trouble with it.
in one of my other tanks i have a frontosa, flowerhorn, and a couple of others, those fish i didnt really care about and didnt pay much attention to them at all, there water is straight tap water, i add no salts no nothing and i do a %20 water change every 6 to 8 weeks with cold water, i know the ph is high, but the fish in that tank grow the fastest, are the most active and most strongest fish i own. i have to agree with watcher on this one, maybe 50 years ago you needed proper water cond, but i think over the years all fish adapt to the water they have grown up in for many generations, go put your frontosa in the water where it came from, bet it dies.

chc
03-10-2004, 11:58 AM
..... hmmmmm........ I just can't agree with that.

Neil N
03-10-2004, 01:00 PM
why would anyone want to keep fish (or any other animal), but not want to give them the correct care they deserve. in my (very humble) opinion if you cannot keep them in the correct conditions dont keep them at all, sorry to be blunt, but i really see it as being THAT SIMPLE.

Watcher, please, please dont be closed to listening to and acting on the advice of others who, lets be honest, most of us here would agree gives very good advice and knows what he's on with.

You may thank Oscar/Frontosa is ok, thats your opinion, i think you are wrong, sorry if that offends, but i find it offensive that anyone would even want to try.

P.s. Rex please keep doing what you do.

Once again sorry if i've offended but, hey thats my opinion

Watcher
03-10-2004, 02:52 PM
everyone hs their own opinions. i think i am right. these fish are bred in captivity and are generations of fish in water that is nothing like where they come from. of all the fish stores i have seen and the one i work at the water qualities are all the same. the fish are fine. if you go to africa and pull a fish out of the water you will need more specific conditions. you get a frontosa and an oscar at the fish store and they will be fine.

do what you will as will i. my fish are fine and i know plenty of people that do the same thing.

good day

chc
03-10-2004, 03:29 PM
Define fine...

jennigypsy
03-10-2004, 03:35 PM
I can see where you're coming from watcher...
But like was said earlier, millions of years of evolution can't be changed in just a few generations.
Fish/animals change to adapt, yes. But it's a gradual change. YEARS AND YEARS of change. The fish are hard wired the way they are. They may be more able to stand the 'wrong' water parameters than F0 fish are....and may continue to be more so...but to say that they could thrive in low pH water...you're a few million years off...
IMO...of course :)

Vip
03-10-2004, 10:49 PM
Neil N: no offence taken dude, its just a hobbie :)
im still sticking with watcher and my opnion, but i have to clap my hands for Rex because i can see were he is coming from, he has a passion for fish keeping, witch i dont, and he wants and trys to educate those people who dont know what they are doing, he wants the fish to be in the best possible condition and for this i do respect him..
just dont get so agro dude :)

the209jungalist
03-11-2004, 02:19 AM
I agree with moderators on this one hands down.
I know that this may just sound silly but... don't most breeders that breed fish keep there pH levels according to what the fishes particular needs are?
I mean straight up I would love to keep a discus but I could never ever keep a discus unless I was using nothing but strictly bottled water. I don't think that a good portion of people could own a discus without having to use bottled water. Discus is a prime example of fish that will not adapt no way no how it ain't gonna happen.
You can kinda think of pH as hard water vs. soft water, have you ever showered with soft water? it makes you slippery as heck and makes you feel like you don't have all the soap washed off you. Now if you shower with hard water you literally get that squeaky clean feeling with no residual left over on you.
If you were a fish which would you prefer hard or soft?
Depends on which fish you are doesn't it.
You should keep fish in the water they prefer.
C'mon what would be the deal with brackish tanks and stuff, they need there water brackish, why?, because they are brackish water fish.

I know i'm probably annoying some, but we all catch my drift right?

bevoman
03-11-2004, 07:06 AM
Watcher, I do not understand why when every knowledgeable expert on this board disagrees with your ASSUMPTIONS, you give no room to the possibility that their overwhelming agreement could be correct. I personally thank all the wonderful respondants on this thread for continually doing all they can to educate the fish keeping community.

jennigypsy
03-11-2004, 08:24 AM
There you go, jungle.

Watcher
03-11-2004, 08:27 AM
you don't have to understand. my fish are fine. people i know who keep fish are doing ok. the fish at my store that i take care of are fine.

leave it alone already.

Fishhead
03-11-2004, 11:32 AM
This is actually very interesting and its not good to see it turn into a "Im right and you're wrong" kind of thing.
Rex I totally understand that you want to keep your fish in the most ideal conditions that you can, and that is great. Im sure your fish are very healty and breed constantly. But Watcher does have a point that the majority of aquarium fish are raised in neutral pH water and have been for years. I believe that most fish have a range of pH that they can live, or thrive, in. And Im sure that most fish can adapt to the situation they are in, if its not too drastic of a change. Just like humans that live in higher elevations can survive with less oxygen, might not be ideal but its within the range.
I think that its crazy to think that south and central american cichlids need to be kept in such strict conditions. Or any river fish for that matter. I bet that the pH in a river in central america changes constantly. There are heavy rains, erosion, droughts, pollution, many things that would change pH all the time. But I believe that african lake cichlids are more sensitive to water conditions. And also someone mentioned that frontosa are deep water fish, and yet we keep them in 2 feet of water with a bright light over their heads for most of the day. But a lot of frontosa breed for people despite this change in conditions. I just find this to be an interesting topic that Id like to hear more about long term survivability.

Neil N
03-11-2004, 11:58 AM
It may just be me but i really enjoy trying to recreate the natural conditions, for me it's a large part of the hobby, but each to their own, for some people just owning the fish is enough, but i like to take it a little further and re-create their natural environment (within reason).

But i must admit years ago i did go thru the "put another fish in the tank" stage, but that part of the hobby just doesent appeal now.

Quality not quantity

I'd rather see an oscar living alone than living with a fish that it was never ment to see, or have to adapt to interact with without human intervention (and we all know what human intervention can do)

Watcher
03-11-2004, 02:03 PM
if you want to get down to it keeping a fish in an aquarium is not optimum or ideal conditions but they do just fine in there.

as long as the ph is stable and constant, you can mix the fish. i do it. other people do it. fish stores do it. it's ok.

Rex Karr
03-11-2004, 02:37 PM
Everyone gets your point, Watcher. We understand that you’re always right. If you want to keep contributing to this thread, alter your responses a little. Your last four are basically the same.

I agree that fish can be kept in water conditions quite different from their native environment, but there is a line that most responsible aquarists will not cross. Amazon River fish with African lake fish is just a bad idea, simply put. Central American fish with African lake fish is more reasonable and sometimes a good idea.

Watcher, your lack of experience and knowledge, and yet seemingly total confidence in your advice is what gets me.

cichgirl
03-11-2004, 04:00 PM
Come on, man.... It doesn't need to go this far... I thought this forum was here to help people. Yes, people can do whatever they want, but how good is a forum that tells people that their fish will be okay when they don't know it for a fact? Until you have put an oscar and a frontosa together for life without one dying, you can't recommend it, can you? Don't play with people's tanks & money, especially when they are looking to you for guidance and knowledge and love their fish. I'm not attacking you, to each their own. Please don't take offense- but that is how I feel... :)

chc
03-12-2004, 11:27 AM
Another fun one!.........

It would seem we all need a little dose of scientific theory here to settle the issue. As I asked earlier..... "define fine."

How many fish keepers do you know that keep their fish for a full natural life span? Almost none. Who defines that natural life span? Fish living (surviving) for some amount of time that its owner defines as appropriate does not constitute "fine" or whatever word you want to use to describe healthy, etc.

I constantly see pictures displayed on this and other similar sites of juvenile and sub-adult fish. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen pictures of fully mature fish in home aquariums. If fish were thriving all over that wouldn't be the case. Where are all the mature fish going? To the big pond in the sky (normally by way of the little toilet on the floor!). Just think, how many baby oscars are sold vs. how many 125 gallon tanks are sold......... Hmmmmmm.

Who is performing the scientific examinations necessary to settle this argument? Breeders do, unknowingly at times, but they are indeed finding the best water parameters for their fish. Fish often refuse to breed in less than proper conditions, and sometimes even if they do their offspring have skewed sex ratios, deformities, or growth problems.




... and the thought of using the practices of a LFS as an example of how to do anything is laughable. All in all, they are horrible examples of husbandry.


BTW...
As far as the comments about the changing pH conditions in central american rivers..... they rarely change much due to the extremely high buffering capacity. They may drop due to agricultural runoff, storms, etc, but the buffering capacity keeps them extremely hard (just degrees of extreme hardness in most cases). Not neutral.

The same occurs in the South American rain forest rivers. The extreme acidity of such rivers may change somewhat, but they are always acidic. Decidedly so in many cases. Not neutral.

Watcher
03-12-2004, 07:10 PM
fine can be a wide defination. why don't you define it?
i would say fine is colorful, active, hearty, good appetite, all the characteristics that certain fish is supposed to have. that to me is fine.

bevoman
03-12-2004, 09:08 PM
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines fine as free from impurity. Fish in an aquarium setting will never be free from impurity. (For that matter I doubt that they are free from all impurities in the wild. I believe impurities ended in the garden of Eden) What this definition means to me is that we should try to provide our fish with the closest thing to their natural environment as possible. Therefore, I believe the larger the tank, the closer to fine you become. We all have limits when it comes to size. Be they space or finance. I believe it is our duty to provide our fish with the most space we as individuals possibly can. I hope this ends this thread.

karak
03-12-2004, 09:37 PM
where did the true topic of this forum go? instead of going on and nagging one another please answer the question- you are proffessionals on this whya re you acting so ubscrew?

bevoman
03-12-2004, 09:48 PM
My answer did answer the question. Do you find oscars and frontosas together in any natural environment? NO. (I probably should have left that retorical)

Watcher
03-12-2004, 09:58 PM
my answer also answered the question. you can keep the 2 together and they will be fine. people talk about natural environment yet they keep fish in a tank and feed them when they will. that is not natural. whats the difference? just cause 2 fish come from seperate waters does not mean they can not live together and do well. it's done all the time.


if you're going to be that hung up on giving fish perfect conditions then you should not even keep fish. you could have a 15 inch frontosa in a 200 gallon tank and that is not optimum compared to the wild. see the point. these fish will do just fine as long as things are stable.


i'm done talking about it. all i know is my tank looks sweet and my fish are FINE so everyone else can worry about their own stuff.

bevoman
03-12-2004, 10:02 PM
I agree watcher. I did say after defining fine that it is up to the individual to do the best they can possibly do. If this is the best you can do, then I say fine.

tom
03-12-2004, 10:22 PM
This thread was closed earlier by a moderator, then re-opened in the hopes that it would take some direction. But it appears to be on auto replay. The moderators were right; I, on the other hand, goofed. Let's put this one to bed, ok? Thanks.