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View Full Version : Overzealousness to hybridize



Afrabat
04-11-2011, 07:52 AM
I can guarantee you I don't have hybrids in my collection. That is an insult to my intelligence as a very well informed hobbiest. It doesn't matter if you are on the business side of it or not. You have no idea the knowledge of cichlids I have so you have no right to make that assumption. On the other hand, you laid all your cards out on the table so I'm not making assumptions, I'm stating the obvious. You are so certain you can prove me wrong. Just like I thought. Your focus is purely on yourself and what YOU know; you haven't even considered that others have studied the biology of these fish and know differently.

You don't need to quote how many years you've been in the hobby. It doesn't matter if you've been in for 50 years and frankly I don't care. You could no way prove that almost all cichlids in the hobby are hybridized and I'd be really interested to know where you got that "fact." You are making a mockery of what Laif Demason and Stuart Grant have done over the last several decades. Are you also going to tell me that they have hybrid fish too?

You made the same comments to the first person that responded to you as you did to me. I will not go away because you have a few well prepared statements. The way you worded your statements tells me that you were expecting someone to say something, as you should. You don't post something like you have on a forum like this without inviting debate. I will not walk on eggshells around you. Get upset if you want; you are just being that way because you know someone would come against it. If you have been in the hobby for 30 years and you are on the business end of things then you understand that many in the hobby are against what you are doing. Especially those that have a wide base of knowledge in wild caught or wild reared fish. You also know that by not informing the people that buy your Red OB that they are an intentionally hybridized line, you are withholding information from that person. Seems like you don't only want to change the fish but also want to change the hobbiest.

I have a LFS (like yours?). Not sure if you have an actual business or your doing it in your basement. They sell fish without informing the purchaser of what they have done, making things very difficult for the new hobbiest to make the correct choices for himself or his fish in the future. Yes, line breeding has been done for years. Difference is, the animals you are line breeding don't do anything better for the consumer than the orginal zebra besides display a different color pattern. You are reversing the specializations that are deeply embedded in their DNA that make them work the way they do. In this day and age no one can be happy with what they get; can't just leave the poor animals alone to live as nature intended them to. Give an inch, take a mile.

My argument started with saying you are not correct in your statement that all fish in the hobby are corrupted and hybridized. There is no way for you to prove this. You also made a personal attack saying that I myself keep hybridized fish when in fact you have no idea what my stock list is. Without knowing each person I got my fish from once again - no way you could prove that there are any in my collection. I don't buy my fish from LFS; I get them from well known retailers that would not line breed just to make some extra cash. "Most of the fish you think are pure are not." How would you possibly know what I think is pure bred?

Bottom line... I'll believe what I want and you can believe what you want. I don't know you and you don't know me. But I won't be subjected to broad assumptions of "almost all fish" or "most of the fish you think are pure are not" and I definitely won't put up with personal attacks.

vinman
04-11-2011, 08:55 AM
Thanx for taking this out of my thread.

Yes, history and experience = knowledge

The hybrid issue . Most of all the albino peacocks in the hobby are mutts. They all came from one albino peacock.b This is a known fact . Do you really think all these different ssp of peacocks all produced albinos. It is funny that 5 years after the first albino peacock hit the hobby there were all kinds of albino peacocks on the market.

Red zebras have been mutts since the they were first crossed with rusty cichlids in the 70's. Red males are super rare . The whole hybrid issue is well known to those of us that been dealing with wholesalers for years .

Ok you have posted in this forum you buy auction fish. did you contact the person that donated all the fish you won ??? Un less you can trace your stock back to wild stock and that stock has to come from honest breeders and importers then and only then can you be sure what you have is pure

Afrabat
04-11-2011, 10:00 AM
Yes, actually I did know who each fish came from and where they got them from. All have been purchased from very reputable dealers in the last 5 years, I have made sure of that. All were pre-sale except one and I knew the person selling them and where lineage comes from. I have been dealing with many reputable dealers since my first order years ago. I am well informed of the hybrid issue which is why I said anything in the first place.

Never owned an albino of any species and don't own red zebras. Red zebras (Metriaclima estherae) males may have been made like this but females M. estherae or red zebras have been found in the wild for a long time. Ad Konings Malawi Cichlid in their natural habitats 3rd and 4th editions have M. estherae in them and many other books do too. Difference being males in the wild are blue not O or OB. Okay, so that is only the albino complex and red zebra complex. That hardly counts for all the fish in the hobby. Where did you hear a statistic like this?

vinman
04-11-2011, 11:05 AM
Ok so you know who your fish came from but can you trace them all back to wild stock. I have lot of friends who breed. They buy fish from one another I point out the hybrids all the time and these are sold by good people. Why does this happen ??? because people take other people words. One person buys a fish off another person and so forth and so forth yet no trail to WC fish. Too many people think they know a fish just on looks and those fish get passed on to other breeders. So unless you can trace you fish to wils stock then you can say what you have. look at the abused name Tumbi west Is.

Every L. trewavase that has a red top is right away a Tumbi West Is trewavase. Meanwhile the whole southern end of the lake is loaded with many locations Of RT blue trewavase with deep red dorsals

look at the Electric Blue Johannii M.Maingano Both male and female look alike . Now you see a lot of Likoma Is crossed to Maingano sold as Electric Blue Johannii. hundreds of thousands of these get imported from Asia every year.


Yes the reds have been coming in again since 1990's I have bought many wild reds. if you read my whole hypo red zebra thread you would see I posted true red and mottled estherae. ypu would see how i showed what the difference in between a true red OB and A hybrid OB is . Most of the reds in the hobby are mutts. Cherry reds, Crimson red's and most of the red OB hybrids between estherae and and other ssp of the Zebra complex . Read that thread very good you dont got to school me on estherae I have owned over 50 WC over the years . I got some F1 adults and a WC female in my tank. My F1 come from my wild stock I got from Atlantis who is a importer. I thought Iwrote a thread about the history of the red zebra in this forum. I checked and could not find it so I pasted it below

Red zebra history in America follows
In the mid 70 two shipments from Mozambique contained red zebras in. The males were blue and the females were red. As I was told in the early 80's buy the people that were in this since the early 70's is that one or two O males had popped out of some of the wild imports. The demand started for O male ,But they could not get any shipments out of Mozambique due to a civil war. They have found other populations of Zebras that had O morphs. Now as I was told the people collecting on the lake at that time were not the most honest people. This is before Grant became the main player on the lake. If I'm not mistaken it was after the Davies. Peter and his wife or Richard Furzer I'm almost it was the latter. We they were taking these o morph fish that were not from Minos reef ( At that time know one knew where red zebras came from ,Just Mozambique ) Any who's. The O males were rare but the commend a high price 100. bucks wholesale. In time we had found out that all those red males were not the same location as the first red zebras. Also white cobalts were sold as red males ,not the pearl white the non pearl whites .This was not done by importers but by so called repeatable people.selling to hobbyist/breeders. Remember the thinking was all zebras were the same fish just different colors because they came from different locality in the lake. Someone had crossed a rusty cichlid ( the purple phase ) to the red zebras. This cross enhanced the orange pigment.It was called a Anni. See in wild Esthera are a florescent red/orange color. This color fades to a light orange color in the indoor environment. These hybrids did not loose their color. When these females were bred back to O males some of the O males instead of being pink were deep red orange like the males.these were breed back into Esthera. these produced fish that looked like red zebras but had deeper color. The new fish was coined Crimson red. They quickly became all the rage and the FlL. farms were soon to become the leaders in the production of this new hybrid at this time. They also bred this strain to the albino zebra to produce the albino red zebra. ( not the one in the hobby today. I don't know how that was developed, It its totally different) These were bred to produce the deepest red on red fish and the name Cheery red was coined this hybrid was applied to the rare Ob phase, Called the orange blossom zebra. Not the red ob or Orange blossom has a small mottled pattered of a blueish blotch. Un like most OB females that have a brown blotch. Now you had the color of the orange blossom to the crimson zebra. these were crossed to the Big Block OB zebra type like the Pinto Zebra, also known in this country as pinto or Mozambique zebra. The real name is Met. zebra Cobue.http://www.malawi-dream.info/Maylandia_zebra_Cobue.htm That was a zebra that had deep black blotches they were in block form and males came in were whits with black blotches females had a cream to a white background with big black blotches, notice I don't say spots or mottling. This pattern was known as Big Block. So at this time pure reds were few and far between. only a few people had them as time went on none were pure any more you hardly seen them. all the red ob's no longer had the same orange color blotches to them, nor did they had the mottled blueish pattern but big black blotches . Not there is a albino Red OB that I have no idea how it was developed all I know is it breed with reds zebras and it has big blocks . It is a mutt.)

Afrabat
04-11-2011, 11:39 AM
I don't care about the story of the red zebra complex, I know they are hybrid. I said I could trace back every fish I have to reputable retailers not people who breed in a basement. I am very careful about my fish so stop trying to find a way to convince me otherwise. Either they are offspring of wild, wild or pond raised in Africa. So yes I can trace them all back to the wilds they come from.

2 more species complexs you named, but I'm still not seeing "most of" the hobby.

vinman
04-11-2011, 12:03 PM
So if you buy fish shop fish whether from a store or a privet person you got fish of unknown linage. If you cant trace it back to wild stock. Then you don't know hat you have . like i said most Malawi fish in the hobby are mutts. with out the known linage that can be traced back to the wild stock that strain comes from you have no valid proof on the purity. I'm not being mean but honest, but you have AS fish ( Aquarium Strain ). AS are fish of unknown lineage. That means you can't trace them back to the wild founding Wild caught stock. I have pure fish. I have wild caught and G1 and pure strains. you know how I know because all the founding stock has been bought Wild Caught from a importer. Atlantis tropical Fish. http://www.cichlids.net/index.php the get their wild caught fish right from the people on the lake.

I would say that if you got most of your stock from a Basement Breeder that Buys wild stock then that is one thing but you buying pet trade fish just like the stuff that I breed for the pet stores and the people that just want a pretty fish.

Pond Raised from Africa is not always pure either some SSp were stocked with fish from Florida fish farms

Afrabat
04-11-2011, 12:12 PM
Man!!! Read the words that are appearing on your screen. I DON'T BUY FROM FISH STORES. Said that twice now. I can trace back the lineage of every single fish I have the wild fish from Lake Malawi. I know people from Atlantis. I also know other reputabled dealers. Which is also what I said. If I bought a fish from someone I know for a fact they themselves bought it from a reputable dealer. I don't have AS because I don't shop at Petsmarts and Petcos.

You keep making the same statements over and over. 4 complexs don't make up "most of" the hobby. You aren't even aiding to the debate your making personal attacks that you can't even back up. Seems like you are trying to play a game of whos fish is better. I have pure bred fish. Period. You don't know so don't make assumptions. You can't even quote a source on your rounded statistic.

I don't care what you do. To each his own. I cared that you were making it personal and trying to attack me without valid points or reason. If you were a geneticist you would be making valid points not just trying to prove me wrong. I'm not wrong and you can't prove I am.

vinman
04-11-2011, 12:22 PM
F1 good, if you are getting them right from the breeder then you know what you are getting . If you getting then form a reseller then it is all depends who you are getting fish from. Wild is good but if they are farm bred that is the same a pond raised as with the fish that come out of Burundi it is hit and miss with Malawi fish.

Ok you say you been doing this for a while. Your from Des Moines, IA. Then you must know Jeff Willcutt. Jeff is a very good friend of mine . Talk to him about what we are talking about . Ask him about the 2 wild male red zebras he bought off a so called reputable dealer.

So you saying that Atlantis does not sell AS fish ????

Afrabat
04-11-2011, 12:27 PM
I don't need to ask Jeff W anything. You're still not making valid point on the whole hobby. Did I say that Atlantis does not sell AS fish? NO. Don't mix my words around. I said I don't have them. You can't prove anything so I'm done with this convo.

vinman
04-11-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't care about the story of the red zebra complex, I know they are hybrid. I said I could trace back every fish I have to reputable retailers not people who breed in a basement. I am very careful about my fish so stop trying to find a way to convince me otherwise. Either they are offspring of wild, wild or pond raised in Africa. So yes I can trace them all back to the wilds they come from.

2 more species complexs you named, but I'm still not seeing "most of" the hobby.

you are wishy washy in the reply. Now if you are getting pond raised fish you dont know if the are pure or not. if you are not getting the F1 from the breeder then you have no idea where they are coming from..

No attack no fighting we are discussing a topic. No Ill feelings here on my end but I will prove my point You said that I was wrong about that most Malawi fish in the hobby are not pure . Yet you have failed to prove your point. I at least shown you some proff. You have not shown me any on this subject. Instead you are concentrating on your own stock. You have some pure and some of unkown lineage as you said that you have some pond raised stock. that means they could or could not be pure.

Now read below I said I bet you have mutts in you tank and don't know it. I did not say that I'm sure you have mutts



totally wrong. I'm on the business side of the hobby. Most of the fish you think are pure are not . I been keeping african cichlids over 30 years. I bet you have mutts in you tank and don't know it. Most Malawi cichlids in the hobby are Hybrids. If you don't know this then you dont really know your fish as well as you think. you have no idea what has been done to the yellow lab. Bad genetics is not the cause, get some wild yellow lab stock like I have done and then you can talk about what is going on with yellow labs. I been keeping and breeding Wild Caught Malawi cichlids for over 30 years and have built up a vast knowledge of Malawi cichlids. If you like to debate this start a thread and PM me a link and I will prove you wrong. This is my thread on a breeding project that I'm doing, not a hybrid debate thread.

Afrabat
04-11-2011, 04:40 PM
I will prove my point You said that I was wrong about that most Malawi fish in the hobby are not pure . You have not shown me any on this subject. Instead you are concentrating on your own stock.

You still didn't prove your point the "most of the hobby is mutts" You gave 4 examples of complexs that were of a dirty lineage. That hardly accounts for "most of the hobby". I'm keep bringing up my stock because you made it personal that you can have "pure fish" but I apparently can't.



you are wishy washy in the reply

Don't understand how I am wishy washy when your the one that made up your own statistic without having absolute fact to back you up. No scientist would ever do that. But you're playing with genetics. Trying to get the fish to throw different genes. You are a lucky guy to have only "pure fish" I sure do envy you.



Now read below I said I bet you have mutts in you tank and don't know it. I did not say that I'm sure you have mutts

I don't have fish from an iffy lineage. I've expressed that several times and your just refusing to understand. Each of my fish can be traced back to the wild. Wether you believe it or not they can be. The comment you made above is the same thing said in a different way.




Now if you are getting pond raised fish you dont know if the are pure or not. if you are not getting the F1 from the breeder then you have no idea where they are coming from..

Uh, yeah F1s come from F0 parents. I know how this works. My fish are all offspring of wilds or F1's or F2's. I don't buy them from LFS or big company fish stores. I have bought them from Erik Dyke Laif Demason or Dave Shumacher. If I didn't buy them from them directly they came from these people in the last 5 years. I don't need to prove myself to you. You are the one that made outrageous comments and can't back them up.



Yet you have failed to prove your point. I at least
shown you some proff.

You attacked my stock list and I'm saying what I said above all my fish are pure. It's funny that you think you have the only "pure fish" in the hobby. How is it that "most of the hobby are mutts" but you amazingly enough ended up with "pure fish". You have yet to prove that "most of the hobby is mutts". Show me where you got this fact and all will be over. But, you can't because you just made it up. I say all this and then you'll turn it all around and try to confuse me but you can't.

1. I know my fish are legit and you can't prove they aren't.

2. You said "most of the hobby is mutts". Prove it! Show me the scientist that said that statistic or show me the reputable place that made the comment?

vinman
04-11-2011, 05:20 PM
No I keep both and All my pure stock that I will stand behind all are descendants of wild fish I got from Atlantis. There are plenty of people that have pure stock and I never said that you did not have any pure stock . I said I bet you have hybrids and don't even know it. You got fish at auctions as in your own words. The fact you have pond raised fish This you have said with your own words. so those fish are of unknown lineage. When you have to trace back to the wild . You have to how the strain was kept. Just because it is pond raised in African dont mean anything you still what their breeding programs. Go ask Laif Demason he will tell you that Burundi farm in Africa stocked L.trewavase from his pond stock not from wild caught stock. ask I'm think he mentioned something else.

Now i can go on and on about many different Ssp. I have a article from a BB from the ACA That tell how fish farmers transfer what traits they want from one Ssp to another Ssp This is from the 80's

Many of the stock you think is pure is not. I see how you miss Identified A pair of M. parallelus . That was a easy one and you got it wrong very wrong. So what does that say about you knowledge of how to ID a fish.


1. Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos can't really see but I'm thinking female.

2. juvie Melanochromis auratus; could be hybrid as the stripes are not outlined in white see below

I don't need a scientist to prove my point. If you knew what you were looking at then you would be able to tell what to look for in identifying a fish. A male Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos dom't look nothing like a Male Melanochromis. parallelus to someone that knows their Maliwi cichlids. Close to a novice but to someone that really knows their fish it is very obvious which is which

Afrabat
04-11-2011, 05:33 PM
Okay just like I said this is done with. You're not backing up your comments. I don't need to defend my fish to you. You made up a statistic you can't back up. Once again you brought up one of the complexs you had already mentioned. When you can quote someone with a real statistic please let me know. If you can't, don't make comments you can't back up.

Just because I miss identified a fish doesn't mean that it is not pure. It also doesn't mean that you I can't look at a fish and tell if it's pure.

vinman
04-11-2011, 05:41 PM
Uh, yeah F1s come from F0 parents. I know how this works. My fish are all offspring of wilds or F1's or F2's. I don't buy them from LFS or big company fish stores. I have bought them from Erik Dyke Laif Demason or Dave Shumacher. If I didn't buy them from them directly they came from these people in the last 5 years. I don't need to prove myself to you. You are the one that made outrageous comments and can't back them up.

This is what you say now but before you say your stock is F1 and wild and pond raised in africa so they must be from wild stock


I don't care about the story of the red zebra complex, I know they are hybrid. I said I could trace back every fish I have to reputable retailers not people who breed in a basement. I am very careful about my fish so stop trying to find a way to convince me otherwise. Either they are offspring of wild, wild or pond raised in Africa. So yes I can trace them all back to the wilds they come from.

2 more species complexs you named, but I'm still not seeing "most of" the hobby.


So again you have no idea where you pond raised stock came from being they dont always stock their fish from wild stock something that you did not know

vinman
04-11-2011, 05:42 PM
You still have not provided your claim that most Malawi fish are pure . tell me where are your facts. show me some examples as I have shown you.




Just because I miss identified a fish doesn't mean that it is not pure. It also doesn't mean that you I can't look at a fish and tell if it's pure.

Thank you for proving my point with your own words.
Now I have owned Melanochromis. parallelus many times and I had wild caught and sold their fry for many years.

Afrabat
04-11-2011, 05:55 PM
Most Malawi cichlids in the hobby are Hybrids

Cite your source!

vinman
04-11-2011, 06:06 PM
I just told you what went on remember I I'm a source I been keeping and breeding with WC for 30 years my friend I seen and had Wild caught fish that are no longer in the hobby . I even tried to find the on the net and know one knows about them. They are in my old books though.

I told you ask Laif Demason about burundi Pond raised stock. I buy thoes trweavase and some of them have no nose so how pure are they.


Now give me something . tell me how you can prove your point. Being I deal with fish farmers and Wholesalers tell me they are wrong too . tell me you know more than them what is going on in the hobby

DogWalker
04-11-2011, 06:09 PM
This is going absolutely nowhere.

Closed!