Help!

[kyle]

I have a bunch of newbie questions!
I also posted this in the Beginner's thread.

I started a 30 gallon Tanganyika tank a couple of months ago. A friend gave me 3 N. brichardi/pulcher and 8 Julidochromis marlieri.
How do you tell brichardi/pulcher apart? I think I have N. pulcher. They have tails with long fins. My friend mentioned 'Daffidil' But I see that word referring to both species.

So, after about twenty days the brichardi/pulcher laid eggs and they hatched a few days later. They became really territorial and won't let any fish near the bottom, except the lone fish of the same species. I assume a female. There were about 20 fry and they seemed to be doing wonderfully. Then, a couple days ago I did a water change. The fry were about two weeks old. I was very careful about not creating too much of a current, but none the less, Afterwards I could only find 4 fry. Its been two days and I still only see 4 fry, so I assume the rest are dead/eaten. So now with the first batch of questions!

Should I of waited to do a water change?
What was wrong with doing a water change? Was it the current?
How long does it take the brichardi/pulcher fry to reach a half-inch?
How soon till they re-lay? What can I do to encourage it?

So anyways, I guess the water change simulated the J. marlieri to breed, and the biggest pair laid a bunch of eggs on Xmas eve. all this makes me very happy, but I want some fry to live. It worries me that the N. brichardi/pulcher have staked out the bottom of the tank as there territory. Next batch of questions.

Will the J. Marlieri fry get eaten by the brichardi/pulcher when the go to the bottom? Or will they live in the cave with there parents?
How long will it take the J. Marlieri to reach a half-inch?
Is this setup a recipe for disaster?
Should I separate the breeding pairs into there own 10 or 20-gallon tanks?

thanks for any help!
Happy Holidays!

[aharris]

How do you tell brichardi/pulcher apart? I think I have N. pulcher. They have tails with long fins. My friend mentioned 'Daffidil' But I see that word referring to both species.

They are both a part of a complex of very closely related neolaprologus species that really pretty much act the same. The daffodil will have more of a yellow cast to it than the pulcher which will be more buff colored with white fin tips. Otherwise, finnage and body shape are pretty much the same.


Should I of waited to do a water change?

No. I think the problem you had was that maybe your water was just enough off the temp and pH and kH of the main tank that you may have shocked the little ones to death. They are a little small to handle drastic changes. Try to make every parameter of the new water match as exactly as possible next time.


How soon till they re-lay? What can I do to encourage it?

If they're anything like my julidochromis, you can look forward to one spawn every three weeks or so. In order to encourage it, just maintain regular water changes and a good quality diet. Really, these guys (both species you have) are some of the easiest Tangs to breed.


Will the J. Marlieri fry get eaten by the brichardi/pulcher when the go to the bottom? Or will they live in the cave with there parents?

Honestly, the brichardi beat the julis to the punch. In a tank that size, only one of your two species will breed, and the one that does will probably kill the one that doesn't. At this point, your julis all have big targets on them. The brichardi are known for spawning and having the fry from previous spawns help them control larger and larger territories. A single pair can populate up to 2/3 of a 55g with their extended family. Unfortunately for you, julidochromis are the same.


Is this setup a recipe for disaster?

Yep.


Should I separate the breeding pairs into there own 10 or 20-gallon tanks?

That would at best be a very temporary solution. Ideally, you'd provide each species with their own 30g at least for one breeding pair. You might have gotten away with the julis in a 20 had you gotten a smaller species like dickfeldi or ornatus, but marleri reach a good 5"+ at maturity.

[kyle]

Thanks for the answer,

A couple comments and some more questions.

After posting those questions I went to the beginner forum and was looking on the water changes thread. I use the bucket method. When I did my water changes, the temperature was the same and the water had sat for more then 24 hours to remove the Cl , but I'm not sure about everything else (pH ect.). For the people who use the Python and tap water, how do they regulate the water that goes into there tank? There was no shortage of people posting on that thread that did weekly water changes with no deaths.

If I wanted to remove the fry form my tank after they are a week old and put them into a 20 gallon, what should the setup be? What type of filter? (undergravel? mini aquaclear?) and should I just leave it bare with no cover (rocks/plants)?

So, it wouldn't be a good idea to add a pair or two of N. leulupi to the tank? How big of a tank do you think I would need if I wanted a couple pairs of J. Marleri, a pair or Birchardi and a couple pairs of N. leulupi? 55+ gal?

Thanks

PS. Be warned the the more answers I get the more questions I'll ask!

[aharris]

Well, part of the problem with the three species you mentioned is that they are all cave spawners. That means you would have to have enough space in your tank to give all three species clearly defined rocky territories (keep in mind they can all top out at around 5"+ at adulthood), or they will fight to the death over them. I would say you would be looking at at least a 75g to 90g tank for all three given the brichardi's tendency to take over like a fungus. The julis and the leleupis could probably both be kept in a 55g with a rock pile on either end of the tank and an open area in the middle.

In general, the best way to design a community of Tangs is to be aware of the natural living space for each species. There are more fish in teh lake than just the rock-dwellers. You could add a shell-dweller to a 55g community. Shellies don't compete for rocky caves. A small school of cyprichromis would also be ideal as they school in the upper open water space in a tank although 55g is just a minimum for cyps. You could probably get a small shoal of paracyprichromis nigripinnis in a 55g community with either the julis or the leleupis and some shellies. You could also consider getting some of the Altolamprologus species. They don't dwell in caves and would help you keep your fry population under control.

Obviously, you couldn't probably keep all these fish in one community unless you had a very large tank (100g+), but you could mix and match two or three or (maybe) even four species with careful planning to make a stunning and peaceful community in a 55g.

On the water change issue:

Do you know if your local water supply has chloramines in it? If it does, those do not dissipate overnight like chlorine by itself will. Did the other fish act a little weird after the change? Did they tend to hide and sort of sit on the bottom breathing heavily for a period of 15-20 minutes or so? If they did, then I would say that shock and possible poisoning killed your fry. If you are really worried, do not add all the new water at once, pour it in over the course of say an hour adding a little more every ten to fifteen minutes and see what happens. I've never had a water change kill any of my fry, and except for aging the water, I follow the same procedure you do.

With the two species you have removing teh fry is completely unecessary, and if you take them out, you will miss some of the most interesting behavior I've ever seen in aquarium fish. The parents should tolerate the fry until they get large enough to breed themselves before booting them out of the family territory, and older siblings help look after younger ones. As the family gets larger, successive spawns should see more survivors in each generation.

If you did decided to remove fry, a bare tank is the easiest to keep clean. Using lengths of PVC pipe will provide the fry with easily removed shelter. Most of the people here usually use simple sponge filters on their grow out tanks along with daily water changes of 50% or so to maximize fry growth.

[kyle]

Thanks for the advice.

Maybe this would be better posted in the water change thread, but I'll do it here anyways:

Am I wasting time by letting the water sit over night? Should I test my tap water and if it is good just add it directly with some drops to remove the chlorine?
I would like to keep my tank at about pH 8. How do I do this if my tap water is, say pH 6 or 7? My gut tells me not to add tap water directly to my tank. Please tell me otherwise, It would make my life a hell of a lot easier!
I don't think the adult fish were harmed by the water change, I don't think they were acting as you described. But the nest day the male birchardi had, what looked like, a fungus type growth IN his mouth. When he would exhale it would come out a bit and when he inhaled it would go in. A few hours later it was gone. The whole time he was acting normally and protecting his territory with his fins fully erect. What could it of been?

Are N. leulupi tolerant of there young?

Opps! Turkey ready!
Gotta run!
Thanks

[aharris]

If your tap water is pH 6 or 7, you'll need some adjustment before you add it, but letting it sit overnight won't increase the pH.

If you go to the water chemistry forum and ask a question about adjusting pH, you'll probably get mroe help there than I can give you. My water is naturally 8.2 out of the tap.

When I go about doing a water change, I siphon out all I'm going to. Then I put whatever treatments/buffers I need into my water jugs before filling them. I figure that the filling is a natural mixing action. Then, I just dump the water into the tank. So long as I keep the new water as close as possible in temp and pH to the tank, I have no problems with my fish (and I have some that are much mroe sensitive than your julis and brichardi :wink: ).

I would seriously make sure that whatever chlorine remover you use also removes chloramines otherwise you may very well be poisoning your fish slowly.

Btw, what I wouldn't give to have tap water with that low a pH. I love S. American dwarf cichlids, and those would be perfect water parameters!!