New ACA Convention Hybrid Class

[Mr Firemouth]

http://acaforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3355&st=0&#entry14291

Class 28. AOV-Cichlid will allow for the showing of any cichlid, including Hybrids!!!

I will see you all at the convention! Make your registration today!!!!!

http://www.2009aca.com/

[RustyNut]

My stomach is turning.... this is encouraging the creation of hybrids! Dear lord! The last bastion of decency has fallen! Break the Seals and release the horsemen!

OK, I'll admit hybrids aren't going to go away and maybe some of these people have the best intentions.... I am just concerned about recognition leading to mass hybridization. An example: I believe "Mixed" African tanks in most stores mean that quite literally! The bloodlines are so confused that everything is a mutt.... and they remain reproductively potent. If hybrids were all sterile I don't think there would be an issue with hybrids. :(

This is going to be my first ACA too... :(

[Mr Firemouth]

This is what happens when 1200 members remain silent!
Now maybe they will say something!

[RustyNut]

OK in retrospect, if the Hybrid breeders can PROVE they are doing something worthwhile and not unhealthy with their specimens, I may concede an inch or two.

[jombi21]

I don't know how I feel about this. We shall see. I voted though!

Jom

[Mr Firemouth]

Rusty, before we spend time condemning hybrid cichlids, we need to remember that this debate and all the posts I and Mo have put out over the web have been going on for months and months, yet only a handful of members have logged onto the ACA forum and discussed their views. This was after notes in the Newsletter and the BB's about using the forum to discuss issues.

If this move is not appreciated by the general membership it will need those people to utilize their voice and be heard at the ACA. This expression of voicing opinions as a whole was Guy Jordan's battle cry "Cichlid Power!!!" The BOT can not hear those that have been silent.

We shall see how the summer unfolds, hybrids and all! :)
Semper Cichlidae!!!

[Glaive]

So long as I can go in the fish show room and see clearly labeled tanks I will survive.
The ACA is an organization that needs to make tough decisions in order to grow an
in this specific case it is the hosting club making the decision after much deliberation.

[RustyNut]

Doing what is right isn't always popular.... Maybe the day of Frankenfish has arrived?

Since its the hosting club that made the decision, I feel a little better.... just a little. :)

[MandatoryDenial]

There is another issue here to. I can't tell you how many reputable dealers I have dealt with who have been fooled by the fish stock they purchased and later on I found out that I got sold hybrids. I can't tell you just how mad that made me waiting... waiting.... and waiting for the appropriate colors to develop and getting some thing... else.

Anyway I really wish I could somehow verify that the fish I was purchasing was in fact coming from pure stock or hybrid stock.

[mikeinco]

The way I see it is that these FH, Hybrids aren't going away anytime soon therefore I don't see a huge problem bringing them into the ACA hopefully with some new members. I think along with dicussion groups and workshops everyone (including Hybrid owners) can stand to learn something from this debate that never seems to go away. Afterall don't you need certain PURE species to make certain Hybrids? If those PURE species aren't around you can't keep making certain Hybrids. I think eveyone needs to be aware of the importance of keeping PURE species in this hobby. So by including the Hybrid class this year you're starting to hopefully educate everyone and make people aware of the impotance of conservation in this hobby.

[mikeinco]

I also want to clarify something. I don't keep hybrids, only Pure species. But we can't continue to ignore this hybrid issue and keep thinking to ourselves that it will eventually go away because it isn't. I think by opening up some kind of dialogue with Hybrid owners we can all only benifit by doing so.

[Tak]

Currently there are some discussions going on within the ACA's forum on the debate of including a hybrid show class for the upcoming 2009 ACA Convention.

I personally believe that any way you look at it, hybrids are now probably here to stay. Would I accept them being associated within any "cichlid organization" that I am in? No, I would not.

If people want to keep hybrids that is their prerogative, I don't believe that it is necessary to destroy them, just cause they are hybrids. My personal fear is that down the road multiple avenues for a problem will inevitably occur with hybrid groups being associated with non hybrid groups within the same organization. I also have a personal preference to not intentionally breed different species or genus for my own pleasure.

Would one assume that all members were trading pure line non hybrid strains when you have an unregulated trading post? What is to stop the creation of genus cross breeds? How can an organization educate the everyday keeper of fish to not experiment with crossing over species, genus, or family of fish; when they have allowed for the acceptance of a genus cross like a blood parrot?

Most of the people supporting hybrid acceptance are doing so because they are tolerant and understanding. They don't even keep hybrid themselves. Its through communication and education that they believe that they can associate with hybrid breeders to potential sway them in the future or at least maybe regulate cross breeding(not too sure about the regulating thing, just guessing this as a possible motive). I understand and support the education and communication part, but I believe that publicly supporting hybrids would be more detrimental in the long run. Couldn't or shouldn't that be occurring now? Responsible fish keeping is something that has not quite touched everyone. Don't get me wrong a number of hybrid breeders, particularly of flowerhorns, have an outstanding understanding of aquatic systems and are very responsible about maintaining their fish. My question is more so the ethical value or personal choices of breeding a cross of species or genus to create something for one's personal satisfaction. Line breeding is similar and should be touched on its own. (Two wrongs don't make a right sort to say)

Let me reiterate, that I don't believe that people with hybrids should be left out of an organization. I just believe that a "cichlid organization", like the ACA, shouldn't accept hybrids as a class of cichlids to be publicly accepted. Yes, they are here. Does every organization have to publicly accept them to appease the masses? No, they do not. Does that make the ACA an exclusive organization? No, it makes it an organization that has an established goal. One in which might not fit in with the general public's opinion, but one that does have their respect.

[Glaive]

I think Tak raises a very valid point. I also happen to know this debate is hurting a lot of very important people to the hobby and the ACA. These are all people I refuse to lose.

[RustyNut]

I don't understand why Hybrid breeders feel the need to invade the ACA and not go out and create thier own dang club specifically for hybrids? The AHCA or something.....

To me it makes no sense.... Does a hybrid have a scientific name? Are there any standards by which to judge the class? Exactly how does adding hybrids as a class further the causes of Conservation? The concept of a hybrid class has been very divisive and certainly doesn't promote good fellowship amongst cichlid enthusiasts... and NO hybridizers are NOT cichlid enthusiasts, they are hybrid enthusiasts that may also be cichlid enthusiasts.....

Then there is this belief that adding hybrid classes somehow will increase membership.... but how many more enthusiasts will no longer support the ACA, simply losing membership as a result. If the ACA needs to increase membership perhaps they should spend more time and money on their website design, their informational distribution and generally being more accessible to the public?! Seems to me there are many areas of improvement that could be undertaken before the need to expand the ACA's membership by exploiting the very fish we claim to protect! As has been stated elsewhere, if membership is such an issue then why not just become the American Fish Association? The answer is that the ACA is a FOCUS group concentrating on a very specific family of fishes rather than being a diverse eclectic group that covers everything and serves few well.

I'll accept hybrids when you can demonstrate to me a wild self sustaining hybrid population. Otherwise the ACA's resources should FOCUS on the 4000+ species already in existence. (I think that is plenty of variety!)

[Mr Firemouth]

I agree with the last 3 posts 100%, and am also hurt by the disregard of all the people who have done so much for the ACA! I have stated it several times!

[Chromedome]

I cannot post at the ACA site, as I am not currently a member. I do bring a somewhat unique point of view, as I am, and have been, a member and judge in two other organizations: the American Killifish Association, where I am a Senior Judge (I am authorized to judge any class); and the American Livebearer Association, where I am simply considered a person of sufficient knowledge to judge, as they have no judging qualifications committee (a condition I believe the ACA also suffers from?).

In the AKA, hybrids are severely discouraged. The European killifish organizations don't even allow line bred variants, such as albinos, though the AKA does tolerate them. We have had our debates over that subject, however. I have disqualified fish that were obvious hybrids myself. Suspected hybrids, even between different locations of the same species, can be disqualified at the judge's discretion. However, as I said, our judges are qualified, except for a handful of very old members who set the original standards for judging.

In the ALA, however, we have Wild types and Domestic types. Domestic classes are for line bred fish, but it is widely understood that many variants of Swordtail, Platy, and even some Mollies, are the result of inter-species hybridization. I have an interest in the genetics of Swordtails, how the various colors, patterns, and finnage are passed on, and how they interact with one another genetically. Virtually every variation I work with is the result of crossing with Platies of some sort, or has been passed to Platies by hybridization. Domestics and Wilds are NEVER judged in the same classes. There are three best of show awards at ALA: Domestic, Poeciliid Wild Type, and Goodeid Wild Type.

The ACA has stood on the same side of the line as the AKA from its inception, until now. It has been about the study of Cichlid species. Now they are questioning if they should open up to "domestic varieties". Well, they've been allowing line bred fish in groups such as Angel classes and Peacock classes for years already, and have experimented with allowing multiple Discus classes based on color variants. But, crossing the line to allow hybrids is another step altogether.

IF you want to do it, then follow the ALA example and do "equal but seperate" groupings. That would mean also moving Angels and Discus to the Domestic side of the show. Retain a wild type class for each, or combined, but remove the domestic variants from the wild side of the show. While it is a valid option, it would not be my personal choice.

The Discus organization pushed their way into the ACA, rather than having their own show. Now the Flowerhorn people want to do the same. There are more than sufficient numbers of each to have their own conventions, I think they are just being lazy. Trust me, organizing a convention is nearly a full time job; it's much easier to let someone else do the work and then rent some of their space.

Finally, one note about judging. Fish are NEVER judged "against" one another. Each individual specimen (pairs in AKA shows) is judged against a standard for the species/variety, whether that standard is set by the organization (as in Bettas), or by the knowledge of the judge. As a judge myself, I have often wondered how a humpback over the hill fish could win Best of Show at some ACA shows. But, I'm not a famous Cichlid person, which seems to be the qualification for judging Cichlids. Trust me, it is not a very good way to pick judges.

[Mr Firemouth]

Chromedome you can post on all of these forums and still be a non-member...

http://acaforum.com/index.php?showforum=41

http://acaforum.com/index.php?showforum=68

http://acaforum.com/index.php?showforum=42

Most of the hybrid posts were locked to day because it was a redundant circle of the same exact people saying the same exact thing and getting nowhere.

You should register and post your judging comments in this forum....
http://acaforum.com/index.php?showforum=60

HTH, Rich

[Mr Firemouth]

The hybrid class has been canceled and will NOT be at the show...

http://acaforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3416&hl=

[RustyNut]

Thank you! This will make my first ever convention much more enjoyable now!

I think Chromedome's response has great weight, and there may be some measure of compromise in his suggestions that would be more palatable to a more widely diverse audience.

OK now let us talk about Cichlids!

[StructureGuy]

Most of the hybrid posts were locked to day because it was a redundant circle of the same exact people saying the same exact thing and getting nowhere.
Rich

Which is exactly why I chose to avoid posting on the ACA forum in the hybrid threads.

The ACA has struggled to remain relevant to the average hobbyist for some time. In reality, being a dues paying member has little value other than to be a member. Yet I've paid the fee for many years and likely always will because I love the hobby (and of course the conventions!).

I'm probably one of the most hybrid tolerant of people. As far as I know, I'm the only one that advocated allowing commercially identifiable hybrid cichlid pictures in the CichlidForums CichlidBase for identification purposes. Yet, if the ACA as an organization even allowed the slightest hint that they condone or even tolerate the intentional creation of hybrids, I'm done. I see it as their mission to advocate the preservation of true species in the wild and in our little glass cages.

Kevin

[Tak]

I have joined the ACA and urge anyone else interested along the same lines of natural cichlid conservation to do the same.

It is apparent that the hybrid issue will be one of the main topics that will eventually have to be addressed by the ACA. The best way to make an impact is to see for ourselves the benefits of being a member to this organization and what participation will be necessary to make natural conservation and fishkeeping its main goal. It would be a shame if we had to go about with another long discussion on hybrids next year.

As for now I believe in giving the hybrid discussion a rest for the time being. Some individuals did not agree with the decision that the GCAS made in deciding not to have hybrids for the 2009 Convention and as such there is no point in adding any fuel to the fire.

However, the ACA BOT(Board of Trustees) will have to make a firm decision on its stand about hybrids in the future. So, I am certain it will be addressed once again when certain BOT positions come up for election in the future. I urge you once again, if you are as animated as I am about this issue on hybrids. Please join the ACA. $25 for a year membership is the price of a dinner(if you eat and :drink:like me) and well worth having a voice in keeping the ACA on the direction that it should be on.

[jombi21]

Thank you! This will make my first ever convention much more enjoyable now!\

I quite agree with this. I think it would have been very awkward.

Jom