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TimmaH
09-15-2007, 05:20 PM
So, the other day after lookin closer at my female "red zebra" x "yellow Lab" finding out that it was a hybrid. Thinking at frist that it was at red zebra.

Well yesterday I was at petco pickin up food for my cats, and getting some things for the tank. I was talkin with one of the fish guys, and he told me that hybrids are the cool and rare breed of cichlids. I laughted at him and told him about what Mr Coleman had to say about hybrids ( the link that Seedy posted up)

They told me thou that they would adopt the little crap head. It's not agressive, but still. HYBRID!

TimmaH!

Seedy
09-15-2007, 06:30 PM
Funny story! It's true though, some people DO think that flower horns are REALLY COOL. In fact, there are web pages, clubs and forums dedicated to just that one hybrid.

...But I'm sure everyone is quite aware of my stance on hybrid Cichlids.

Honestly, I'd rather the fish was not "adopted"...because then I or some other person on some other forum will have to go through the process (again) of ID'ing and disappointing/frustrating the new owner.

Hybrids: Kill'em or Keep'em....but don't trade, sell or let the lil'buggers out of your control.

TimmaH
09-15-2007, 09:10 PM
Yeah I hear ya man. Just like Mr, Coleman said on that page. Im not going to do anything with it but keep it in my tank, and keep a EVERY close eye on it. If i see any sort of spawning that deals with it, Its going in a 10 gallon tank. HAHA! I hate to be mean to it, but I dont want anymore of them hybrid punks swiming in my tank.

TimmaH

TimmaH
09-15-2007, 09:24 PM
http://www.flower-horn.de/flower-horn.html

Here's a great (not Really) Flower horn website. They like to believe that these guys do more for your tank rather then a true breed of cichlid.

malawi,sc
09-17-2007, 10:12 AM
the bad thing is that it is not funny. i bought hybred labs from petco.. so now i have zero option as to saving off spring.. i'm not a breeder but i wanted at least the option to raise my offspring.. i will not destroy 12 fish, soft hearted i guess.. but i will not attempt to save any offspring.. the bad thing is only two or three look bad, but they are probley from the same breeder..

MidNightCowBoy
09-20-2007, 10:23 AM
the bad thing is that it is not funny. i bought hybred labs from petco.. so now i have zero option as to saving off spring.. i'm not a breeder but i wanted at least the option to raise my offspring.. i will not destroy 12 fish, soft hearted i guess.. but i will not attempt to save any offspring.. the bad thing is only two or three look bad, but they are probley from the same breeder..


I hope that teaches you not to buy fish from Petco. And definitely not if you want to do any breeding.

aharris
09-20-2007, 06:36 PM
Hmmm, going to places like PetCo and PetSmart are not necessarily a bad place to get fish. You do have to know very definitely what you are looking for, and different stores have different quality fish departments. I have gotten an awesome S. decorus and couple nice female dolphins at two different stores: PetSmart and PetCo.

Seedy
09-20-2007, 06:42 PM
Hmmm, going to places like PetCo and PetSmart are not necessarily a bad place to get fish. .

I would add to that: Only if you are an experienced fish keeper and REALLY know your stuff...otherwise, expect to end up with hybrid Cichlids, hybrid Synodontis sp etc...

I would say to any newer Cichlid enthusiast. Especially those considering "breeding" Cichlids to buy from a reputable online dealer, hobbyist or locally owned store. Also, ask your locally owned store who they place their orders through...Many of my fish (including my Haplotaxadon and Tanganyikan eel) came through Atlantis by way of my LFS....My lfs also does the occasional (once or twice a year) order from either Old World or TangledupInCichlids...So don't be afraid to ask!

J.D.S.
10-19-2007, 07:44 AM
0_0

W-O-W!!!

Kill the hybrids? What is so bad? I'm not going to take anyone's side on this, but KILL them? Do you kill a puppy if it isn't pure breed?(obviously not, look at all the shelters) Why should a fish be any different? What is the big deal and all the hate?

cichgirl
10-19-2007, 07:59 AM
People don't have room for all the fry to grow up. Rather than bring them back to the store they should be culled to keep the lines clean in the hobby. Often stores will sell a hybrid as a pure-bred because they don't know any better.

My thinking is only this: keep hybrids out of the stores. You can't neuter a fish. :)

RustyNut
10-19-2007, 01:46 PM
0_0

W-O-W!!!

Kill the hybrids? What is so bad? I'm not going to take anyone's side on this, but KILL them? Do you kill a puppy if it isn't pure breed?(obviously not, look at all the shelters) Why should a fish be any different? What is the big deal and all the hate?


Animal shelter kills thousands of animals everyday...... that is how we deal with any unwanted animal....

Dogs aren't a good example since every breed is still the same species.... so being a mixed breed isn't the same as say... a Zorse or a Liger, or whatever hybrid.... Breeds in dogs are more closely related to line-bred cichlids like the Super Red Empress, or the German Red Peacocks... they don't exist in nature, but through careful inbreeding certian genetic features are "fixed" so that all future generations will breed true....

But the the real problems of hybrids is two-fold... first, most hybrids looks EXACTLY like one of the parents and nobody except the best experts can really tell, so fish that should behave a certian way or have a certian aggression level will not conform to the norm, causing a lot of confusion and making keeping these animals more difficult... Second, as less and less pure lines are available in the hobby more and more breeders begin to import wild stock to aquire pure bred stock increasing the fish collecting pressures on the lakes and potentially decimating/eradicating all the wild stock through over fishing/collecting. A good example of this is the Yellow Lab, which in the wild has a very small population and probably could not withstand even small occasional collections and could endanger the entire species.

I don't think anyone is truly saying kill all hybrids, since most anti-hybrid people have no problem with you keeping your own hybrids in your own tanks where they cannot get back into the hobby. The big problem here is how much tank space do you have to keep all those fry? Average spawns in the 30-40 range would make it very difficult to house just a single hybrid spawn!

Finally consider that in the wild, probably only 2-3 fish from each spawn even live to adulthood.... culling is in many ways similar to what nature is doing.

MidNightCowBoy
10-19-2007, 04:40 PM
A non pure breed puppy is not the same as a hybrid fish. A hybrid fish is a cross between two different species. Dogs are all the same species no matter what the breed.

dielikemoviestars
10-22-2007, 10:08 AM
I think he's getting at the fact that you're killing an animal for something that it had no choice over. I am personally disgusted by the "kill 'em" mantra. The whole "clean blood line" thing is also pretty disgusting. I probably wouldn't sell a hybrid, just because I'd rather be honest with what I'm selling (if I was selling anything, that is), but I would have no problem giving them to a buddy or anyone who knew what they were.

Seedy
10-22-2007, 01:35 PM
I think he's getting at the fact that you're killing an animal for something that it had no choice over.

So, I take it you would be against the elimination of an invasive species that threatens the well being of humans because the animal "had no choice over" it?

By extension of your logic, I take it you would be against the elimination of the Hybridized "killer bees" that threaten honey production, grain/fruit production and kill people from Brazil to the Midwestern United States?

What about the Nile Perch in Lake Victoria?

Zebra Mussels?

Snakeheads?

Cane Toads?

Rats?





The whole "clean blood line" thing is also pretty disgusting.

Why? What is disgusting about that? We are not Nazi's trying to create the perfect race...These aren't humans we are talking about. There are no racial or political overtones to that ideal save what the reader projects on it themselves...

The "clean blood line" (Meaning that the fish is not a hybrid) ideal is to simply preserve the species genotype as it is in the wild...We are not trying to "play god" or create anything "new"...Where does the disgust come in?

RustyNut
10-22-2007, 03:31 PM
I think he's getting at the fact that you're killing an animal for something that it had no choice over. I am personally disgusted by the "kill 'em" mantra.

Death is a part of life, everything must die at some time. In the wild only a very few fish ever reach adulthood from each spawn, the death is still occurring every day, it is just not a man doing the killing. There is no reason to be disgusted over any animal, even human, for killing another it is simply the circle of life.



The whole "clean blood line" thing is also pretty disgusting.

So you are promoting interspecies breeding of animals? Understand that these animals would not hybridize in the wild. It is by keeping them penned up and overcrowded in glass cages that makes hybridization such a problem, so we are obligated to be responsible for those hybrids that are created. You must also understand that allowing hybrids to live and breed not only causes problems for hobbyists but for the health of the fish as well. If an ape impregnated a human would you be so quick to defend the hybrid? What if its an anti-social killing machine? What if its your new brother?


I probably wouldn't sell a hybrid, just because I'd rather be honest with what I'm selling (if I was selling anything, that is), but I would have no problem giving them to a buddy or anyone who knew what they were.

Giving them away can quickly become a problem since those people now must be trusted not to allow the hybrids back into the retail chain or give those spawns away, etc... control of a situation that is your responsibility quickly gets out of control. Culling is what nature does, weeding out the sick, the malformed, and the weak so that only the strongest genetics get passed on, and we must act in natures stead.

J.D.S.
10-22-2007, 06:48 PM
Going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I see where you guys are going with the whole "Keep them pure" thing, but death is not an option in my eyes because a fish(or dog, cat, human, etc.) was born. Imagine if that was the way it was in America? Say you're a kid who is a mix of African American and Caucasian and when you were born, the Government stepped in and said you had to die. Why? Because you aren't a pure bred human? Wouldn't last very long. You can say it is different with fish rather than humans/cats/dogs/etc. but it really isn't. At least, not in my opinion.

RustyNut
10-22-2007, 08:19 PM
I never said it was different, I said its a process of nature.

Your rationale doesn't apply, Caucasian and African are races of the same species, what if it where some lab created half human test tube wonder?

Seedy
10-22-2007, 08:55 PM
Going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I see where you guys are going with the whole "Keep them pure" thing,

I don't think you do, there are several common misconceptions in your post...


but death is not an option in my eyes because a fish(or dog, cat, human, etc.) was born.


That is a reflection of your personal values. Not all of us have the same values.




Imagine if that was the way it was in America? Say you're a kid who is a mix of African American and Caucasian and when you were born, the Government stepped in and said you had to die. Why? Because you aren't a pure bred human? Wouldn't last very long.


I agree that is completely ridiculous and is NOT what I mean by "pure blood". As RustyNut points out ALL humans are the same species. To suggest otherwise (as Dr. Watson of "Watson and Crick" recently found out) is pretty taboo and is considered racist.

This is exactly what I meant about the reader projecting their own racial and political overtones onto the ideal of not hybridizing Cichlids.

aharris
10-22-2007, 09:24 PM
Imagine if that was the way it was in America? Say you're a kid who is a mix of African American and Caucasian and when you were born, the Government stepped in and said you had to die. Why? Because you aren't a pure bred human? Wouldn't last very long. You can say it is different with fish rather than humans/cats/dogs/etc. but it really isn't. At least, not in my opinion.

Yeah, sorry, but cichlids are completely different than humans. For one thing Flowerhorns have to be tricked into breeding to get offspring out of the parent species at all for the most part. It's forced breeding basically using hormones to induce.

The breeding that produces blood parrots creates an offspring that is physically deformed because the parent species are that genetically dissimilar.

What you would be arguing against is more like defending the crossbreeding of humans and gorillas or humans and chimpanzees or humans and orangutangs. And honestly, I would have to say that absolutely would be wrong. Although I suppose you can defend it if you want to.

And while it is all well and good to hold the position that the offspring of such a cross are essentially innocent of their creation, using that rational to defend the practice of hybridizing in the first place or propogating the practice by releasing hybridized cichlids into the hobby misses the mark that we should avoid the event happening in the first place wherever possible to save any potential "innocent victims".

You cannot defend hybridizing by claiming that it is:

a.) widely happening in nature

or

b.) somehow discriminatory to one group or another (especially if that group has yet to be created)

I'm curious: what are your thoughts on the various sub-species of tiger? All can and do interbreed when allowed to and the offspring are viable. However, each evolved to specific environments and has specific characteristics that occur only in that specific population (much like our many cichlids). Is it somehow wrong to try to keep the Siberian, Bengal, Indochinese, and Sumatran tigers all separate and genetically distinct, or should we basically just preserve a "tiger" and let them interbreed into a generic tiger? Noting that in the case of the white tiger, this is what has been done. There is no white tiger in the world that is pure to any sub-species, and there are many who feel about them the same way hobbyists feel about hybrid cichlids, and there is no denying their appeal to people (much like line-bred peacock strains or man-made cichlid hybrids like Flowerhorns).

dielikemoviestars
10-22-2007, 09:38 PM
So, I take it you would be against the elimination of an invasive species that threatens the well being of humans because the animal "had no choice over" it?

By extension of your logic, I take it you would be against the elimination of the Hybridized "killer bees" that threaten honey production, grain/fruit production and kill people from Brazil to the Midwestern United States?

What about the Nile Perch in Lake Victoria?

Zebra Mussels?

Snakeheads?

Cane Toads?

Rats?





Why? What is disgusting about that? We are not Nazi's trying to create the perfect race...These aren't humans we are talking about. There are no racial or political overtones to that ideal save what the reader projects on it themselves...

The "clean blood line" (Meaning that the fish is not a hybrid) ideal is to simply preserve the species genotype as it is in the wild...We are not trying to "play god" or create anything "new"...Where does the disgust come in?

I draw the line of non-killing when human life is on the line. It would be irrational and frankly stupid of me to think otherwise; no species would voluntarily die.

The attitude that "these aren't humans we're talking about" is exactly what disgusts me about that. This is life. Life is to be respected, not culled because of human error. I'm not suggesting racial overtones, but I am recalling a time when humans weren't viewed as equals, and the same happens now with animals. Someday, I hope this will change.

dielikemoviestars
10-22-2007, 09:42 PM
Death is a part of life, everything must die at some time. In the wild only a very few fish ever reach adulthood from each spawn, the death is still occurring every day, it is just not a man doing the killing. There is no reason to be disgusted over any animal, even human, for killing another it is simply the circle of life.




So you are promoting interspecies breeding of animals? Understand that these animals would not hybridize in the wild. It is by keeping them penned up and overcrowded in glass cages that makes hybridization such a problem, so we are obligated to be responsible for those hybrids that are created. You must also understand that allowing hybrids to live and breed not only causes problems for hobbyists but for the health of the fish as well. If an ape impregnated a human would you be so quick to defend the hybrid? What if its an anti-social killing machine? What if its your new brother?



Giving them away can quickly become a problem since those people now must be trusted not to allow the hybrids back into the retail chain or give those spawns away, etc... control of a situation that is your responsibility quickly gets out of control. Culling is what nature does, weeding out the sick, the malformed, and the weak so that only the strongest genetics get passed on, and we must act in natures stead.

I'm not disgusted by what happens in the wild. I have personally watched animals being killed by others in the wild, and have had no problem with it. I have a problem when humans decide to take matters into their own hands, and for what? Really, what is the point of keeping a "pure line"? To keep things natural? You're keeping fish in a glass cage. I can't buy that argument.

If an ape COULD breed with a human, we might have something to talk about. What about mules? Nothing really wrong with them. I don't in any way SUPPORT or CONDONE hybrids, but I do not think they should be condemned, either, for what we've done to make them. Take responsibility of the life you've created, yes. That doesn't mean get rid of it. When hybridization DOES cause substantial health problems (I'm thinking Blood Parrots) I begin to have a serious problem with it.

Giving them away to friends won't "hurt the hobby." The friends I refer to are ones who aren't going to breed or sell them. Most hobbyists don't. Yes, culling is what nature does, but it is not due to pure bloodlines. Nature offers evolution. Hybridization seems to be an interesting example of evolution.

aharris
10-23-2007, 06:01 AM
Giving them away to friends won't "hurt the hobby." The friends I refer to are ones who aren't going to breed or sell them. Most hobbyists don't. Yes, culling is what nature does, but it is not due to pure bloodlines. Nature offers evolution. Hybridization seems to be an interesting example of evolution.

Evolution is not hybridization and hybridization is not evolution. Do not confuse the two.

Evolution is when a species exihibits a mutation that makes it somehow advantageous for an individual to survive and procreate over the others. The offspring of that individual are more likely to exhibit that trait themselves and since it is advantageous for survival, they will likely spread it on. Very seldom can you find examples of traits being spread in a species that are not somehow survival related. Even in humans, our onw genetic deficiencies are often linked somehow to an advantageous trait which is why they have survived to plague us today. Sickle Cell Anemia is a good example. One copy of the gene make you resistant to malaria, two copies makes you deathly ill.

Cichlids in their local populations have the colorations they do because it is likely those colorations somehow effected their overall survival in that place. Two local populations very seldom overlap offering very little potential for interbreeding between populations as I have already explained in another post.

Cichlids like mbuna have evolved different dentition to take advantage of the auwaks in differing ways. They really are like a crowd of grazers on the Seregeti - each eats its own type or level of vegetation. When you start the idea of hybridizing, you start meddling with their dentition and losing those features that make them unique. And again, it has been shown that they do not hybridize amonst themselves in the wild very much if at all. If they did it readily, there would not be so many different species of them, but rather one homogenous fish called Pseudo-something mbuna. Clearly this is not the case.

You can try to use the mule as an example but it's a poor one. For one thing, I have never heard it said that either horses or donkeys are threatened with extinction or loss of habitat. While there are some varieties of wild ass that are near extinction just as there are some varieties of wild horse, these are not the types used to create mules. Also, I have never heard the complaint that mules are threatening to replace either horses or donkeys in popularity. Not only that, mules cannot breed being non-viable meaning that if you sold your mule off, you have no worries that someone down the road will knwoingly or unknowingly use it to breed to another horse or donkey creating mostly-horses or mostly-donkeys. In fact, most of the widely known animal hybrids are this way - non-viable - thus not creating a threat to either parent species.

You can then try to blame us in the first place by keeping fish in unnatural structures called aquariums, but that won't fly either. Firstly, if that's really how you feel, you should go check out PETA. I hear they like people with that attitude about animals and animal ownership. Secondly, you can do many things to reduce the chances of ever encountering the problem in the first place. Thirdly, I have allowed many, many broods of pure cichlid offspring to be spit in the tank and eaten because I simply did not have the time, money, or space to devote to their rearing. I also do not have 30+ friends per monthly spawn that are willing and able to take fish off my hands. I'd think about fixing my fish, but last I checked there was no way to spay or neuter them and it's darn hard to keep harmonius all-male communities. Also, last I checked, it's hard to do a good job keeping them without them spawning for you. Hybrids aside, that's too many fish.

If I can't keep the pure fish and save them all, I sure am not going to go out of my way for ones that shouldn't have existed naturally in the first place.

cichgirl
10-23-2007, 06:14 AM
It really doesn't matter what your stance is on life or death. Just keep them in your own tanks.

Cichlid keeping is not for the faint of heart.

J.D.S.
10-23-2007, 06:54 AM
I think applying such an analogy as Humans and Apes mating is ridiculous. All cichlids are both fish. A Human is a Human and an Ape is an Ape. There's a big difference.


And so, supposing you do get a hybrid, you choose to kill it. You justify it in your own mind that it is okay because that is what happens to a large percentage of fish in nature. This, my friends, is not nature. Not even close. This is a cage, filled with fish, for your entertainment. If something happens in that cage that doesn't happen in nature, then it is your duty to take care of it. And you do this how? By murdering it? Are you God to say that this fish dies and that one doesn't? Someone mentioned PETA for those who feel this way about the cages, I never said I didn't like having them in glass cages, I simply state that I take GOOD CARE of what happens in these glass cages. And killing, is not in any way, shape, or form good care.


Aharris asked me about tigers...my thoughts remain the same. If different sub-species of tiger do not mix in the wild, then that is how it is in the wild. If they so happen to mate in the zoo when you put them together, then YOU are the one who caused the hybrid. You are responsible for that offspring, and again, you are not God to say that the hybrid dies really.


We can argue this back and forth all day long, but what it comes down to is a choice and an opinion, both of which reflect your character. I don't see any law coming any time soon that outlaws the murder of fish, so you guys that do that, well, continue on your way. I'm just saying I don't believe in murdering a hybrid. I, am not God. And I, will not stop you from your practices or beliefs.

spifff2003
10-23-2007, 07:13 AM
and to think this all started cuz someoene mentioned the mixed african tank at petco:faint:

cichgirl
10-23-2007, 09:40 AM
And so, supposing you do get a hybrid, you choose to kill it. You justify it in your own mind that it is okay because that is what happens to a large percentage of fish in nature.

I don't justify it that way. I justify it by thinking -- I don't have room for 40 more fish and I'm not giving them to the lfs. I'll use the hybrids as feeder fish for my oscars and dempseys. I see no harm in that. I don't like killing anything. I'm fairly confident that nobody here gets any enjoyment out of killing. But when you have too many fish, you have too many fish. And being responsible for your glass cages is not turning your hybrids over to an lfs to be "adopted" out to another hobbyist. That one hybrid can produce hundreds of thousands of fry and then each of the fry produce hundreds of thousands more in their lifetime. That puts way too many hybrids out on the market and makes it difficult for cichlid enthusiasts to be sure that when they buy a fish, they get what they pay for.

I respect your value on life, very much so. But there are certain responsibilities we have as cichlid enthusiasts, and this is a big one. If someone doesn't have the space to keep everyone safe and healthy, they should take steps to ensure that their hybrids don't get released out in to the hobby.

dielikemoviestars
10-23-2007, 10:18 AM
It really doesn't matter what your stance is on life or death. Just keep them in your own tanks.

Cichlid keeping is not for the faint of heart.

Nor is it for those who want to play God.

dielikemoviestars
10-23-2007, 10:23 AM
Evolution is not hybridization and hybridization is not evolution. Do not confuse the two.

Evolution, in its purest form, occurs when a new species that is better fit for life arises. The traditional view of this process involves the species not being able to interbreed with others, due to isolation or genetic difference. Hybridization could EASILY fall under one of those two categories.

The fact that the definition of species only seems to be under question with African Cichlids seems pretty suspicious to me, as well.

"Biological / Isolation species
A set of actually or potentially interbreeding populations. This is generally a useful formulation for scientists working with living examples of the higher taxa like mammals, fish, and birds, but meaningless for organisms that do not reproduce sexually. It does not distinguish between the theoretical possibility of interbreeding and the actual likelihood of gene flow between populations and is thus impractical in instances of allopatric (geographically isolated) populations. The results of breeding experiments done in artificial conditions may or may not reflect what would happen if the same organisms encountered each other in the wild, making it difficult to gauge whether or not the results of such experiments are meaningful in reference to natural populations.

Biological / reproductive species
Two organisms that are able to reproduce naturally to produce fertile offspring. Organisms that can reproduce to almost always make infertile hybrids, such as a mule or hinny, are not considered to be the same species.

Mate-recognition species
A group of organisms that are known to recognize one another as potential mates. Like the isolation species concept above, it applies only to organisms that reproduce sexually. Unlike the isolation species concept, it focuses specifically on pre-mating reproductive isolation. "

J.D.S.
10-23-2007, 10:58 AM
and to think this all started cuz someoene mentioned the mixed african tank at petco:faint:

I must admit though, I've seen some pretty fish in those Mixed tanks...and in some respects, prettier than their "pure-bred" mother and father. lol :hehe:

MisanthropeKitty
10-23-2007, 01:30 PM
I think applying such an analogy as Humans and Apes mating is ridiculous. All cichlids are both fish. A Human is a Human and an Ape is an Ape. There's a big difference.


All cichlids are in the same family, Cichlidae, and humans and apes are in the same family, Hominidae. I am sure I could go even farther into the classification and show that humans and apes are closely related. I believe the human and the chimpanzee are the closest... oh and btw, humans are considered to be apes.

Ok, I went and looked and humans and chimps don't split until the genus. Which is where the different kinds of cichlids split also. So your saying the analogy is ridiculous no longer applies. It is a very good example imo.

I think the problem you are having is imagining a human and an ape mating. No one wants to do it but it probably is feasible. It would be considered an outrage if someone ever DID try this... human rights and this and that. Everyone would go nuts about it not being morally right and blah di blah.

What makes you think the fish are ok with breeding with a different species? When we put them in their "glass cages" they are being taken out of their environment and confined to a much smaller area than in the wild and if we as fishkeepers don't give them the option of breeding with their species, they resort to breeding with others making a hybrid, which in the case of humans/chimps would be "morally wrong and probably unjust" but with fish it's ok? I don't agree with that.

If you have hybrids, keep them to yourselves or cull them. Don't give them out to anyone else... even if they don't PLAN on giving them away. **** happens. And when those hybrids are given to the wrong person they can be sold again as purebreds to unsuspecting consumers. When I spend money for a certain fish, I'd like to know that I am getting exactly what I paid for... not to find out later that my fish is actually a hybrid.

Seedy
10-23-2007, 01:54 PM
The fact that the definition of species only seems to be under question with African Cichlids seems pretty suspicious to me, as well.


Um...You haven't seen the new debate about Archocentrus and all the SA/CA Cichlids "up in the air" right now. It is certainly not limited to African Cichlids...No, that would be pretty much all of biology and taxonomy saying that. Go check out the ICZN's web site and see what kind of cases they are hearing. http://www.iczn.org

Lumpers VS Splitters and those who swear by morphology and those who place higher value on DNA evidence all have different takes on the definition of a species...So, No: all across the board the definition of a species is "up in the air".

Is Bert Kobayashi still teaching at UCSD/Scripps? He would be an excellent person to talk to about speciation and taxonomy. He also knows where the best Sushi places in all of San Diego are...but I Digress...

As far as hybridization and evolution go...Well...It turns out that in the rift lakes hybridization may be a powerful tool of Evolution. There is at least one paper out their right now suggesting that much of the diversity in the Rift Lakes may be due to hybridization...

RustyNut
10-23-2007, 02:29 PM
I think applying such an analogy as Humans and Apes mating is ridiculous. All cichlids are both fish. A Human is a Human and an Ape is an Ape. There's a big difference.


And a melanochromis is a melanochromis and a pseudotropheus is a psuedotropheus! They are all UNIQUE creatures.... From a genetic view, humans are 98.5% or more alike with apes, and crossing both species has been an ongoing scientific experiment since the 60's... just for some perspective, a pseudotroheus and a melanochromis are about 1% genetically identical... very similar to the man-ape ratio.


And so, supposing you do get a hybrid, you choose to kill it. You justify it in your own mind that it is okay because that is what happens to a large percentage of fish in nature. This, my friends, is not nature. Not even close. This is a cage, filled with fish, for your entertainment. If something happens in that cage that doesn't happen in nature, then it is your duty to take care of it. And you do this how? By murdering it? Are you God to say that this fish dies and that one doesn't? Someone mentioned PETA for those who feel this way about the cages, I never said I didn't like having them in glass cages, I simply state that I take GOOD CARE of what happens in these glass cages. And killing, is not in any way, shape, or form good care.

Nobody is saying YOU should kill your fish/hybrids, that is your own morality. What is being said is that killing or keeping them do not let them out of your own personal control. Regardless of you own views, you should respect the views of your fellow hobbyists that want pure genetic fish. Why would you respect your pets more than your fellow man?




Aharris asked me about tigers...my thoughts remain the same. If different sub-species of tiger do not mix in the wild, then that is how it is in the wild. If they so happen to mate in the zoo when you put them together, then YOU are the one who caused the hybrid. You are responsible for that offspring, and again, you are not God to say that the hybrid dies really.


Why not? You created it? God gave you the power over life and death of the creature, stop feeling guilty over your power! If a creator exists, he gave man dominion over the earth intentionally and included in that was the killing of animals, not just for food, but for whatever use man deemed proper. Heck, in the judeo-christian faith god commanded his followers to sacrifice their animals to him. There is also a passage where god tells Adam that the earth is his playground to do as he wills. Why is it that when an animal kills another its nature, but when man kills an animal its murder? Sorry I just cannot see the difference between the two.

RustyNut
10-23-2007, 02:43 PM
Kitty your 100% correct!

cichlidfanatic
10-23-2007, 04:27 PM
This is an interesting debate, but I guess it's one of those things where everyone has their own opinion.

I personally hold to the view of keeping hybrids under control, just seems like the responsible thing to do.

SabrinaD
10-23-2007, 04:55 PM
A couple more examples of distinct species that hybridize and produce offspring that CAN reproduce....
Dogs and wolves
Cattle and American Bison (ever heard of a beefalo?)
This is not strictly a cichlid nor a even a fish problem. There are enough closely related species around that the old definition of species doesn't work any more (only animals of the same species can produce fertile offspring).

aharris
10-23-2007, 05:47 PM
In order for evolution to work the way it's supposed to work, you have to have points in the process at which the organisms in question are still very closely related without being exactly the same thing. In fact, no one of us is genetically identical while we are all still humans.

I'm sure that now that we are unlocking the mysteries of the genome we will be able to better determine just exactly what the "jumping off" point of speciation is at some point in the future.

And I don't need biology text books quoted at me.

I fail to see where you don't understand the facts that naturally occurring hyrbids are rare in the Lakes despite having many fish living in close proximity who can clearly spawn with one another and create fertile offspring. If it doesn't happen in the Lake with any regularity, how can you imagine it to be a normal or natural circumstance when it occurs in an artificial environment? Artificial environments produce artificial behaviors.

Refusing to admit that there are things you can do to prevent hybridization in the first place like not stocking two fish of the same genus and ensuring that males have females of the proper species available or not buying hybrids when you see them, is trying to simply run an end-around on the main argument when you try to defend the lives of the poor "innocent victims".

And when you try to reduce the entire argument to an emotional appeal based on the "big evil fish keeper murdering the hapless fish who happened to be born on the wrong side of the tracks", you are simply trying to dismiss the main argument itself by painting the anti-hybrid crowd as evil and therefore bad while you and your kind who would preserve these "innocent victims" by any means necessary are clearly the only good people here. It doesn't work as everyone knows we are not rampant murderers creating endless hybrids for the sadistic thrill of murdering them with a meat cleaver. In fact, check again who is creating the hybrids and which side of the fence they are on.

fishyfactoids
10-23-2007, 05:59 PM
Why is it that when an animal kills another its nature, but when man kills an animal its murder? Sorry I just cannot see the difference between the two.

I agree with you on the most part, but I think that when man kills another animals it is seen as murder simply because he is not killing said animal with what tools he has evolved - he is using weapons, caging and trapping the animal, and therefore not giving it a fair chance to escape. Other animals have not and cannot evolve at the rate of our inventive minds. Sorry, I just have this unavoidable urge to answer rhetorical questions.

aharris
10-23-2007, 06:25 PM
And yet, if mankind had not used his brain to develop weapons and traps, we would not have survived and I very much doubt that the polar bears, grizzles, lions, and wolves of the world would be caught up in debating the morality of our extinction and their diets.

And you might say that our weapons and traps are not evolved weapons. I would point out that that is not entirely true either. Because of the brain we have naturally evolved, we are able to use that enormous natural tool to equip ourselves for survival with the very weapons and traps you complain about. No natural brain = no weapons and traps.

You seem to be essentially saying that we are like the theoretical sharks with lasar beams strapped on our heads that are sent to kill the hero of a bad spy movie.

RustyNut
10-24-2007, 04:25 AM
Use of tools is not the exclusive domain of humans either, many animals use tools to eat or even kill with. Granted they use simple tools like stone hammers and tree limbs, but so did man at one point.

I feel guilty for being the top adapter......

fishyfactoids
10-24-2007, 05:28 AM
I'm not saying that directly, I'm saying I've heard people say that. Me, I don't feel guilty for using tools to kill animals as the brain is man's only true advantage. I just feel guilty for inadvertently killing off everything else.

aharris
10-24-2007, 05:52 AM
I just feel guilty for inadvertently killing off everything else.

Even where that's concerned we've come a long way. We understand now that we can kill off things completely and we understand that that might have negative impacts. So, believe it or not (I know many don't) we do try to minimize the chances of that happening. The problem here is that evolution tells us that species disappear as matter of course, so I don't think we've learned yet what's natural disappearance and what's artificial disappearance. And when and why would we call ourselves artificial as if we are somehow removed from the natural order and unnatural ourselves?

The other thing I've seen in this thread is the accusation that the people in it who are advocating that hybrids should perhaps be culled as one means of controlling them are "playing God". Let's examine that for a moment (http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/Soodhanan_Flowerhorns.html). Here in the Flowerhorn we have a commercially developed hybrid that was made simply because what nature (and God) provided wasn't "good enough" in man's eyes, so men had to go play God and create something better. The result is a fish that is a literal nightmare. At first, Flowerhorns were unable to breed amongst themselves, but now even that has changed. These fish are mean enough and hardy enough to literally take over any ecosystem into which they are introduced that they can survive in. And the only reason they exist is to provide a fish with a nuchal hump, red coloration, black spots all in one for man's amusement. If that ain't playing God, I don't know what is.

See when I cull a batch of hybrid fry, I am taking the tack that I know I cannot improve on what nature and God do.

J.D.S.
10-24-2007, 09:39 AM
Listen, guys(and gals), this debate can only end in bloodshed. I never said I didn't respect your opinion, I just thought it was wild to kill a "mixed" fish just because he was mixed. I can't and wouldn't control what you people do with your fish, it is ultimately up to you, the owner. I'm just saying that I don't think it is right, and that is my freedom of speech.


Having said that, I will kindly retire from this discussion because I can see that it will not get us anywhere. I can see that people will only walk away from this with anger and hurt feelings. I see it the way I see it, and you all see it the way you see it. Good luck to all of you with your cichlids, catch y'all around the forums...

-J.D.S.

tom
10-24-2007, 10:04 AM
Good luck to all of you with your cichlids, catch y'all around the forums...


A slightly belated Welcome, J.D.S. Good to have you on-board!

tom
10-24-2007, 02:44 PM
Thread split: http://www.cichlidforums.com/showthread.php?t=27263

Seedy
10-24-2007, 03:15 PM
A slightly belated Welcome, J.D.S. Good to have you on-board!

Ditto! Hope we didn't scare you off! I can get a little "passionate" about Cichlids :rolleyes: :cool:

cichgirl
10-24-2007, 04:38 PM
Yes, this discussion must've been a whopper of a first impression. :wink: Welcome to the forums. I hope you stick around, we're much friendlier than it might seem. :D

daniel505480
10-26-2007, 12:55 AM
We have animal shelters in America. Far too many of them for my liking. You can go into one of 20 or more shelters in any state and get a new puppy, kitten, dog, or cat for less than $100 with all of its vaccinations and the sterilization paid for! Yet, people continually search out 'pure bred' chihuahuas for $1000 each as well as a hundred other 'pure breeds'. Ever think where these shelter dogs come from? They come from idiots that let them breed without regard for the consequences!

Euthanasia is a whole different story but you can't say that all those dogs and cats running the streets would be a better situation can you? Some people cannot bring themselves to do certain things but that doesn't mean those things aren't necessary.

That brings us to the point about the fish. Its much better to prevent the creation of these life forms in the first place. That way you avoid the moral dilemma altogether, as well as many other problems. That doesn't always happen though. Sometimes you are left with a situation that needs handling. Many people are not equipped to handle such situations which leads to all of our problems with 'unwanted pets'. You know that most of those animals in shelters end up getting the needle right? Does that make the people at the rescue center murderers?

RustyNut
10-26-2007, 04:30 AM
Yes, apparently

aharris
10-26-2007, 05:44 AM
You know that most of those animals in shelters end up getting the needle right? Does that make the people at the rescue center murderers?

If you've been following the reasoning in this thread, of course it makes them murderers. :rolleyes:

It's not the animals' faults that they're unwanted; nevermind that whole position absolves the blame from the unresponsible perons who allowed that animal to come into being in the first place by refusing to spay or neuter its parent or ancestor.

xof
10-26-2007, 08:34 AM
Kill 'em all, let God sort them out! jk

Cool debate. Personally, I think it is best to try to keep hybrids out of the purebread lines. If you are selling a hybrid and saying that it is a purebread then that is wrong. But if you want to keep a hybrid and take care of it, more power to ya.

RustyNut
10-26-2007, 02:17 PM
Agreed, nobody has said to kill all hybrids just because they are hybrids, it is more that hybrids are rarely in demand, have unknown behaviors/agression, and potentially have genetic deficiencies that will shorten its life.

The strongest point made has been to Keep them in your own tank and do not allow them out to anyone else. It may not be their fault for being created, but it almost certainly is your fault for allowing the conditions to exist that caused the travesty! I find it even more revolting when I hear of people intentionally creating hybrids (playing god) so they can create something unique enough to market and get rich off of....

Now I have no problem with line breeding... This is done with Dogs, Horses, etc. and is simply crossing the same species with a desirable trait back to another of the same species with that desirable trait so that all the off-spring (or most) have that trait.
EG: One red and one Blue fish... when crossed produce 50% red and 50% blue off-spring, but when the red off-spring are line bred (to each other or back to the red parent) then ALL the off-spring (or most) start to display ONLY the red color, until eventually no blue off-spring are ever seen in the line again.... at this point it is called a BREED. The reason this is acceptable (somewhat) is that all the animals involved are still the same SPECIES as each other. A classic example of this is seen in Common Guppies and Discus which have brought out an amazing range of colors that were already existent in the animals genome.

2 points I want to expand on.

First is the idea that IF hybridization exists in the wild that this somehow justifies captive bred hybrids. I disagree with this notion simply because in nature there are enviromental pressures CAUSING the fish to fill an available niche, while in captivity WE are the pressure and the niche is non-existant. This is just as unnatural as a man-ape cross.

Second is the concept that man is not 'just another animal in nature' so when mankind kills for any reason, the killing is called murder and is considered unnatural. If I am part of nature, and then my killing of a weaker species IS natural. I respect life greatly, but I kill thousands perhaps millions of plants in my lifetime, and probably hundreds of animals just by being an everyday consumer, yet somehow the life existent in plants is never taken into consideration when a vegan starts to munch his salad while quipping about "all life being sacred". Where would we be without products made from the hides, furs, and bodies of animals? What about pests and insects?
Personally I think it is more respectful to the life you've taken to make maximum use of their deaths to preserve other life without waste, or as little waste as possible. This is a reflection of how nature operates with nothing ever going to waste. Wasting a life is a shame.

GFridrich3
11-10-2007, 04:24 PM
I love all my cichilds equally. Im not the pickiest of cichlid owners. I like the assorted bin's. Sometimes thats where i find the best looking fish in the store. I dont breed them, i dont sell them. They are my pets, and just fun to look at. I couldnt care less if any of them are hybrids or anything like that. When one gets out of hand, he spends a week in a large fine mesh net. When it gets released, its back at the bottom of the totem pole in the tank. The rest of the fish arent afraid anymore. I wont kill off a pest fish, i just dont have it in me.

But on the other hand, im not going to get pissed off or talk down anyone who is serious about the activity and "whacks" a few less than desireable fish or one that causes too much trouble in their tanks. Thats their choice, its their fish, not mine.

daniel505480
11-10-2007, 06:06 PM
Here is a perfect example of why hybrids are a problem. I was at my club auction this past week and a member of ours was auctioning some peacocks off. They were fry that he spawned. Upon further explanation he said that they were half sunshine and half red. He didn't really know more than that other than 'sunshine' and 'red'. He went on to explain that half of his fry were coming out 'red' and the other half coming out 'sunshine'. This guy really thinks that he is getting fish that can be legitimately sold as sunshine peacocks! Furthermore he is selling them to people in my club. In a situation like this you don't just up and say "hey what the F#$% are you doing selling those fish like that?" Nobody says anything, ever. The ones that know better just bite their tongues and ignore the auction while the other people bid. We don't say anything because we are not there to fight with each other and it will likely end up that way. I'm sure this happens in a lot of clubs and a lot of hybrid fish get sold at auction and moved to other people's tanks. This is where it becomes a problem. 95% of these secondary owners will eventually want to get rid of these fish, it seems people are always trading fish around, so where do they go then? People that don't think there is a problem with hybrids don't really understand the big picture. There is much more trading of these fish going on than most people know about.

RustyNut
11-10-2007, 07:45 PM
Hard to know what is right in that situation, but a club can set rules to disallow hybrids from their auctions, and can promote good husbandry to its members. Certainly you don't want to fight, however sometimes a little guidance can go a long way toward improved membership. I wish everyone took this problem seriously....

daniel505480
11-10-2007, 07:57 PM
Well, you get into sticky situations if you disallow any fish because you are labeling them 'hybrids'. Then what do we do with all the albinos? Do we allow some hybrids to be sold, and not others? We have lots of species that do not have naturally occurring albinos that now have albino genes. And then we have the new stuff coming out like the 'blueberry' and the OB sciaenochromis fryeri. Its a can of worms that I'll be hesitant to open up.

I agree that at the club level we should be able to educate about this and after witnessing this last auction I am quite surprised. I am sure that I will not be so quiet next time. I usually don't get involved too much in these meetings other than talking to a few people, but I do hate to see them getting these fish from this guy. The guy selling them is a complete idiot and the ones buying them are just ignorant of the situation.

daniel505480
11-12-2007, 11:41 PM
I went into the new Petsmart down the street today. Wow, was I disappointed. I've never seen so many feeders in such a small tank before. Most places have bad feeder tanks, but the fish could barely move there were so many. They also had about 60 Oscars of varying sizes with horrible cases of HLLE. It is really sad what some businesses practice in the animal trade. I've never seen fish as bad as those Oscars. There were probably 80 oscars and 20 of them were free of HLLE. 25-30 of them had extremely bad cases with craters all over their head, face and gills. The store was completely unaware.

aharris
11-13-2007, 08:15 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: big box pet stores are a case by case basis. Whether or not the fish dept. is worth anything depends entirely on who is hired to run it. I have at least three PetCos in my area, and they run the gamut from good, to OK, to horrible. It just depend son who is managing the dept.

daniel505480
11-13-2007, 10:50 AM
While big stores can differ on a case by case basis these companies are all required to get their fish from the same places. The big stores have exclusive deals with big fish farms. They got the same Oscars they would have sent to every other Petsmart right now. Maybe some of you guys could go out to your local petsmart right now and see the oscars they havein stock... The tiger oscars were the ones with the worst cases so look for those.

For the most part I view these stores as individual entities, but not when it comes to their livestock. Since they get their fish from the same place it wouldn't matter even if a Petsmart did have a great person running the show. Lets also consider that there were about 5 african cichlids in their tanks that should have culled for various reason. These stores cannot send back their shipments when they get them, so a good manager would even be forced to sell those fish. This is why the big box stores suck, and yes I can lump them all together into the pile of crap they created.

A good fish store gets their fish from a supplier that will not give them culls or sick fish. Petsmart gets their fish from a supplier that will give them whatever they have on hand regardless of their condition or many other factors.

aharris
11-13-2007, 02:48 PM
I was referring to the conditions the fish were kept in not the genetic quality of the stock itself. As far as that goes, it's buyer beware, but you can still pick up some nice fish form those places if you know what you're looking for.

I picked up a handsome Syno. decorus from one on clearance (and yes, it was purebred and not the recently created hybrid sort). I also picked up both my female C. moori from another, and one of those two turned out to be a gorgeous fish once I put some size on her (nice dark blue that shades to black on the fins when she's feeling broody).

daniel505480
11-13-2007, 05:14 PM
Personally I wouldn't trust any of their mbuna to be pure anything. But you're right that you can find some great fish for great prices in there on occasion. I like to make it around to most of the stores at least every two weeks to see what's happened since my last visit and that has always proven to find me some good fish. I must admit a few of them are from Petsmart.

TimmaH
11-14-2007, 01:55 AM
HAHAHA WoW! I havent been on in a few weeks, and I must say I sparked up a good topic here.

I have gone to my other LPS and have found better looking and pure breed cichlids, one place is petsmart, they do rather well here, BUT there is that OOOOHHHH Sooo famous "Mixed African Cichlids" Tank. I was talkin to one of the employees and pointed out a couple hybrids like my Red zebra x yellow lab, and I told him that he should kill them rather then sell them. Then asked me to leave the store. HAHAHA! Owell. So good to see that i can atleast get a good post going.

Thanks All

TimmaH