Breeding Oreochromis Esculentus

[Sail1993]

Hi all, this is mt first post here. I work at the N.E. Aquarium. I have acquired 3 Oreochromis Esculentus from work. 2 female, one male. (They were part of an African exhibit that ended about 6 years ago) I've been told that they are the grandchildren of some that were brought back from Lake Victoria in 1990. I've had them at home for a couple of months in a 30 gallon. (too small) and I'm cycling a 75 gallon for them now. I've laid down 50 lbs or so of crushed coral and a few days from now I'll add the fish. Then I'll slowly raise the temp to 78, feed them like mad and hope for the best. I really want these wonderful, friendly fish to breed. A little more background, these fish are at least 7 or 8 years old and have never bred that I know of. There were 11 in an aquarium that was not conducive to breeding, (too small, too cold). I'm hoping they are not too old to breed given the right conditions.

I know these fish are very rare but there must be some out there in someone's aquarium. Has anyone ever bred these? If so, any tricks or tips? I get all sorts of wise cracks from the people in work, but little advice other than size of tank, temp, food.

[ocdreamin]

How's this going?

The only advice I can offer other than heat and space is hiding spots. Also, a product by Sera called Activant has been known to induce breeding activities.
Do you have any pics of them?

[Sail1993]

Thanks OC. My camera is in Alaska with the boyfriend. He wanted to take a good camera with him. I'll post a pic when he returns in a few weeks. But you can see a pic of the Oreo here: http://www.homestead.com/morefish/esculensus.html

Do you have a link where I can purchase the Sera Activant online from the US? Most web sites seen to be overseas.

The fish are in the 75 gallon now and the temp is up to about 76 degrees. I'll raise it to 78 in a few days. There are a couple of hiding places (fake rocks) in the tank and once in a while one of the females will go inside, but not often. Mostly I have them in there so if they do finally breed the female will have a place to hide.

What I'm about to say sounds crazy and I hesitate to put it in writing but a biologist at work told me that fish breeders pour a small amount of a pregnant woman's urine in the tank to get the fish to breed. Hormones, I guess.

[StructureGuy]

Here is a lousy picture I took of one at the Columbus Zoo.

http://www.cichlidforums.com/postimages/2007-06-09/193359-001.jpg

I love my Victorians, but this is one I have no desire to dedicate any tank space to, but I'm glad to see some one does.

I've found my Victorians like to breed at lower temperatures.

Kevin

[Matt V]

my general breeding experience is the same as Kevin's. I keep my Victorians at around 76 degrees and they breed constantly. frequent (every 6 days or so) water changes of slightly cooler water seem to do it as well. when i get lazier on my water change regime, breeding seems to slow down.

[Sail1993]

Thanks all for your support. Les Kaufman, the guy who brought the grandparents over from Lake Victoria said to get the temp up to 78 or 80, although he did say they will breed at slightly lower temps if conditions are right. I'll keep it at 76 for a while and see if anything developes. Seeing as this fish is part of the the AZA's Species Survival Program (extinct in Lake Victoria) it would be really nice if they would procreate.

Once again tho, does anyone have a link to buy Sera Activant in the U.S.???

[StructureGuy]

Originally posted by Sail1993
I work at the N.E. Aquarium. I have acquired 3 Oreochromis Esculentus from work. 2 female, one male. (They were part of an African exhibit that ended about 6 years ago) I've been told that they are the grandchildren of some that were brought back from Lake Victoria in 1990. A little more background, these fish are at least 7 or 8 years old and have never bred that I know of. There were 11 in an aquarium that was not conducive to breeding, (too small, too cold). I'm hoping they are not too old to breed given the right conditions.

I reread your post and have a few questions (unrelated to your questions...sorry.) I knew that Oreochromis esculentus is or was a part of the LVSSP. I thought that the species in the program weren't allowed to be distributed unless they were in large enough numbers to justify doing so.

You say that the New England Aquarium kept them in conditions not conducive to breeding. Is that because they were thought to be too old to breed? Otherwise, if they are one of the LVSSP facilities, why would this be so?

Since you work at the New England Aquarium, I would love to hear a bit about their Victorians. I've gone on a behind the scenes tour at the Columbus Zoo, to see some of their LVSSP species. There are many things I don't understand about this program.

Kevin

[Sail1993]

I just accidentally deleted my whole post and now have to start over. Ugh.

Although Oreo's are part of the SSP these particular fish never paticipated in it. After the exhibit closed the majority of them were returned to their original owner or given to institutions that would raise them as part of the SSP. I know that the NY and Toronto Aquariums do this but do not know where their stock came from. The head of the Teacher Resouce Center (TRC) volunteered to take some of the "left-over" Oreo's. They were officially "signed out" from NEAq inventory and they've lived in the TRC, quite content for several years. They were cared for by Education Staff rather than the Fishes Dept. Due to space constraints the tank temp was kept lower to avoid aggression and suppress breeding. I also found out recently from Les that the majority are males.

Since I started working there, five years ago, I visited the fish daily, feeding, cleaning, water changes, etc. and just fell in love with them. They each have such distinct personalities. Anyway, since they are not part of anyone's official inventory I was able to take some home and after five years, I finally did.

During this last several years I've done a lot of research on them. Most of the information I gleaned came from scientific articles rather than from sites such as this. It appears that (and I do not mean this in a derogatory way, it just appears to be the way things are) most home aquarists gravitate toward colorful Cichlids and to be sure these fish are anything but. Anyway, my hope is to breed the friendly little fella's and hopefully convince some Cichlid enthusiast to take some fry home and raise them. If not, no big deal, I know of an Environmental Sciences teacher who would love some and I could always set up more tanks at work and home. Below are two links to articles re: Oreo's that urge people to breed them.
http://www.petsforum.com/cis-fishnet/afm/G29004.htm
http://www.homestead.com/morefish/esculensus.html

On a personal level I would have great joy if they breed, but if not then I'll just enjoy them while I have them. Even though they are not inventoried as part of an SSP, it would give me one heck of a lot of personal gratification knowing I was sucessfully breeding something that no longer lives in it's native habitat. (I was told by the head of the Fishes Dept. that they may be too old and simply no longer have an interest in "kaboinking", as he put it. Although Les, who picked out the male and two females for me says he sees no reason they can't breed given the right conditions.)

As far as NEAq's participation in SSP's, I know we have a Cichlid Room behind the scenes that's loaded with African Cichlids from Malawi, Tanganyika and Victoria (no Oreo's). And there is another area I recently discovered that has huge tanks of Cichlids, but, I'm just the Ed. Dept. Office Manager (read paper pusher) and I do not really know all the things that go on (there are SO many conservation and research projects) or which species are part of SSP's. When I have some free time, I'll try to find out more about the African's from someone who cares for them.

I was recently given an extended family of Tanganyikan N. Brichardi's (16) that were part of a research grant that ended and they needed a home (the scientist should be publishing her work soon) and I'm raising them in my 30 gallon. I would have taken the N. Pulcher's too if I had another tank set up. (What great perks I have) I can't put them in with the Brichardi's or I'd end up with hybrids, and I promised the scientist I would not allow that.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on, and I know I have not given you any real information about the fish that are not on display for the general public but I simply do not know that much about them.

[Sail1993]

Kevin, the AZA's website explains SSP's mission

http://www.aza.org/ConScience/ConScienceSSPFact/

and the Toronto Zoo (sorry, not aquarium) has an Oreo (Ngege) page

http://www.torontozoo.com/Animals/details.asp?AnimalId=673

[Sail1993]

Kevin, I also found the following which show 13 species of Victorian Cichlids and the Little Blue Penguin at NEAq as part of the SSP although no details. Who knew?!?

http://www.aza.org/CandS/index.cfm?page=ALL_IN_Programs

[StructureGuy]

Originally posted by Sail1993
Anyway, sorry to ramble on, ...

Some of the more interesting ramblings I've read on this forum.

As I now completely hijack your thread:
I have no personal interest in this species only because of it's size. I simply prefer the little guys whether pretty colored or not. I've visited the AZA web site but I just can't get a handle on the LVSSP program. When I visited the Columbus Zoo, the fish that were officially a part of the program were stashed away in their bare-bottom aquariums in a back room labeled 14'th generation or 18'th generation. They were not on display and I was not even allowed to take a (non-flash) picture of them. It seemed like conservation for the sake of conservation with no attainable end goal due to the Lakes condition.

Now the advanced hobbiest seems to be doing a better job in some ways. Sure, they're never going to take them out of my aquarium to restock the lake, but I've bred and distributed hundreds of mbipi that are at least as pure as when I obtained them to other hobbiests interested in doing the same. We give them homes more like their natural conditions, watch them, photograph them and share our experiences with them. That's why I'm excited to hear you are doing the same.

I just hope that Dr, Kaufman's health allows him to make it to FOTAS, because I have many questions.

Kevin

[Sail1993]

Not to worry about the hijacking, I'm enjoying the discourse.

Actually, that was the first and only time I met Les. I had emailed him about breeding the Oreo's a week earlier and when he came to NEAq for a meeting he stopped by. Looked pretty good to me, although he was not allowed to get any aquarium water on him. (low immune system?) It was fun to watch him watch the fish, like someone meeting up with an old friend after several years apart.......and what an incredible amount of knowledge he possesses. I'd love to pick his brain but am too uninformed to even know what to ask.

We too have many bare tanks at work....and while it may not be pretty I can assure you they enjoy the best water quality and the best food. Their breeding lines are shared among many zoos and aquariums to prevent inbreeding. (like we ship our penguins all over the country)

As far as restocking Lake Victoria, I highly doubt it. Deducing from what I've read, I think the general thinking among the scientific community is that it is too far gone. (One biologist told me they have to concentrate their meager resources on places that they can actually save.) It takes a hundred years to cycle its water. There is conflict with the environmentalists and the surrounding countries. They enjoy a thriving Nile perch fishing industry, (while the natives struggle to eat.) Like they overfished the Oreo's, they will overfish the perch and then, when it's no longer financially viable, pack up and go leaving a dead lake behind. It should be the poster child for the rest of the watery world. But as I said these are my deductions, not necessarily fact. More rambling again.

(One of the Oreo's just scoffed down a huge chunk of broccoli)