Optimum Median PH Level for a Tank of both Mal & Tang

[SuaSponte]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum, currently in the process of converting a 55 gallon freshwater tank into an environment for Cichlid's exclusively. I'm hoping for some suggestions on where my PH should be in order to support fish from both regions compared to where it is now, which is 7.4 ppm. My intentions are to only have about 5 of the larger variety and maybe 4 or 5 more smaller. I have changed the landscape to include numerous caves and hiding places and am in the process of moving my Gourami's to a 30 gallon tank. I have been using RO water and adding Kent's "RO Right" additive. As I transfer water and some of the gravel into the new tank I'm planning on continuing the RO with a Cichlid additive instead for the 55 gallon tank. Just wondering if anyone had some insight into what the critical testing levels should be in my water before I begin to add fish. I'm somewhat new to Cichlids but I've been wanting to do this for a while and need to make sure I'm doing it right. Thanks in advance for any answers you might have. :D

[Scotty]

Hey Sue 8) Stability of PH is more important than hitting an exact value. Set up your tank, add your cichlid additives and some crushed coral for buffering. Test your PH, and monitor it closely for the first couple of months. If it settles in anywhere over 8, leave it be. I have several African tanks, and each setup is a little different. I get PH ranges from 8.2 to 8.8, and all my fish are healthy. The tank that stays up at 8.8 has the special Rift Lake gravel that's supposed to buffer PH. In my case I found it worth buying, and would recommend it if you haven't bought your gravel yet, but it's certainly not necessary. Hope this helps.....Scott 8)

[SuaSponte]

So if I've already got established gravel in the tank would it still be a good idea to add the coral or ma I OK with what I've got? I'm assuming that the cichlid specific additives would help raise the PH level, is that correct? I'm sorry, forgive me for so many questions but it's all related to doing this correctly and not losing a fish. I'm planning on doing a rather significant water change this weekend, 20 gallons, as I add the new additives and the PH goes above what's reading on the card, how would I monitor? Or am I a complete n00b and should be focusing on high range PH.

[Scotty]

Hey 8) Questions are good. Hopefully it'll avoid the "why are all my fish dead" post in a few months. First off, you are taking out all the other fish that are not Africans "before" you start putting in the additives right? Good, I though so :) You don't need to change your gravel. You could buy a small bag of crushed coral and mix it into your existing gravel, or if you have room, add a mesh bag of it to your filter. This will help buffer your water against PH drops, and possibly allow you to use less additives depending on your water chemistry. Again, this is not necessary. You do need to go out and get a "high range" PH test kit. You can get a simple liquid reagent version for less than $10. This kit has the capability to read the higher PH values. Now get started and have fun :D

[SGypsyMermaid]

sua sponte--welcome aboard, your honor! :D ...take a look at this thread:

http://www.cichlidforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=19&sid=40402374a3adae8bc29298e2665 333b0

[ferdelance]

Hi Sua

You also need to be concerned about the "hardness" of the water, which is a measure of the calcium, magnesion and carbonate ions. Carbonate is what 'buffers' the water or keeps the pH from swinging wildly. Carbonate is a weak base, so it tends to keep the ph above 8. You should also test for hardness. there are aquarium test kits with hardness tests. People put coral, seashells and limestone in their tanks because all of these substances are mostly calcium carbonate and continually leach calcium carbonate in the water. Hope this helps. Africans like calcium in their water but also sodium chloride ( table salt i use about one tablespoon/5 gallons
[img:30adf7d59f]http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mjordon/prozacfish.jpeg[/img:30adf7d59f]

[SGypsyMermaid]

ferdelance--although, many people use sodium chloride in their tanks, it is not a requirement--the waters that the lake cichlids come from do not contain sodium chloride(at least not in any appreciable amounts). however, the salt is not harmful to them, and is considered to be a good general tonic for most freshwater fish.

[ferdelance]

dear sgypsymermaid

I don't know about the chemistry of lake malawi, but i have noticed a marked improvement in the well being of the fish when I added salt to the water. it reduces the osmotic gradient and lowers water loss through the gills, therefore reducing stress
http://www.cichlidforums.com/postimages/2002-10-03/1788-001.jpeg

[SGypsyMermaid]

ferdelance--no argument from me. :D

[SuaSponte]

Thanks a ton for all the great feedback, I'm planning on doing the majority of the work this weekend, transfering the other fish to the smaller aquarium and starting the process of getting the water ready for the new fish in the bigger tank. One more quick question though, given that I've got established gravel in the tank, I'm probably going to use that as opposed to the crushed coral (right away anyway) and I've got quite a bit of rock in there that I purchased from the LFS, probably 60-70 pounds worth of it. My plan is to use cichlid buffers and salts that are made by Kent, to raise and maintain my PH level. I will be doing 20% water changes weekly as usual, which would include adding these products every time I change it. [b:fffa67379f]Will this alone be sufficient to establish and maintain the environment they're looking for?[/b:fffa67379f] Only reason I ask is because I'm happy with what's in there regarding landscape so I'd prefer not to change it, but if it's going to make the fish significantly happier I'd be willing to do it.

[SGypsyMermaid]

yes--in my opinion, the cichlid salts/buffers along with the weekly water changes will give you the correct parameters.

[SuaSponte]

Much appreciated, you guys are great. There seems to be quite a few message boards related to these fish out there and I have clearly picked the right one :D

Wish me luck and I'll keep you all updated and hopefully will have some pictures soon too (sorry, but I just got a new digital camera :wink: )

[SGypsyMermaid]

sounds great! don't feel badly about the camera--at least you've got one! no telling when i'll go digital! :lol: looking forward to reading your posts and seeing your pics. we've got a great group here, and adding new ones all the time!

[SuaSponte]

Well, it has begun. I've moved the Tiger Barb community (west-side mafia) out of the 55 and into the 20, I tested the water and everything appears to be sound. I'm going to monitor these guys and if they do well, the rest get moved later tonight, a 30% water change occurs in the 55 (including Cichlid additives), I leave it alone for Saturday, then Sunday I go make my first purchases. Any suggestions? I'm impressed with the following:

Labidochromis sp
Labidochromis caeruleus
Cynotilapia afra
Nimbochromis venustus

(with my luck I've named four species that will want to go to war :( )

[SGypsyMermaid]

i think that this can work. the only species that i have concerns about are the afras--i don't know which, but i believe some of the species are extremely violent, whereas your other choices are milder(as far as mbuna go) temperament. the venustus, though not a mbuna should be temperamentally compatible with the other fish, but they get pretty large(8-10 inches). try a 'google' search on cynotilapia afra and see what info you get on aggression levels.

[jnorris]

Sue,

You also might consider seeing what your Ph of you water in the tap is. Also a good buffer additive is good to keep your Ph up.

In golden out of the tap is 8.2, when I add it to my new tank it goes up because I have crushed corel and limestone "filler" rock. It is at a steady 8.5

I am right with you in the learning curve phase with an African Cichlid tank. The people on this forum are great to ask questions.

BTW The new 90 gallon is great, I now have 19 happy Cichlids. The only death to report are 2 of the 5 original starter Platys (which were a calculated loss).

So far the Ammonia and Nitrates are not even registering...so far

[SuaSponte]

Well, I brought home 6 new friends yesterday and they are as follows:

Pseudotropheus elongatus
Nimbochromis venustus
Neolamprologus tretocephalus
Labidochromis caeruleus x2
Labidochromis sp.

I kept an eye on them most of yesterday and other than the initial stress of being moved they seem to be doing well. No fights, a tiny bit of chasing but it seems to stop as soon as it starts. I'm already considering changing the gravel to coral, which I should've done but was too stubborn, and trying to find even more rock and mine doesn't seem to be high enough in the back. Anyone have some suggestions on what to use for taller rick formations that won't collapse the stand my tank is on?

BTW, I know this is the Malawi section and I'm pretty sure this guy's a Tang, but the tretocephalus is by far my favorite :)

[SGypsyMermaid]

i think that the trets are gorgeous, too. now let's talk about victorians--since you're just starting out and have plenty of room...not that i'm tring to influence you to buy more fish or anything like that... :sygypsy:

[SuaSponte]

You know, I actually almost bought some Victorian but my tab was getting upwards of $100.00. Not ruling them out at all though. But my big project now (and I know this is a bit backwards) is to change the gravel out for an all crushed coral substrate. I also would like to get the rock a bit higher in the back of the tank. Anyone have any suggestions on:

A) how to change to substrate relatively quickly
B) a lightweight rock-resembling background solution that doesn't require too much handy man type skill.

Oh and I'm assuming with the crushed coral that the vacuuming becomes less of an issue if required at all?

I suppose this might be asking the impossible, but if anyone would have the solutions, you guys would...

[SGypsyMermaid]

tufa rock is very lightweight--there are a couple of suggestions in the diy forum that don't look too difficult :? as far as the crushed coral goes--take a look in the beginners forum and in the african tank forum for some ideas and info.
i can't vacuum in most of my tanks because they are huge rock piles--but all of my tanks are colonized by trumpet/malaysian live-bearing snails which pick up bits of uneaten food and burrow through the substrate, keeping it aerated.

[Tony]

sorry no post. my daughter was pushing buttons while I was reading old posts.And I went for some tea .

[matt1066]

Just to put my nose in here. I think you have planned all of this quite well. I also use Kent additives and find them superior to Seachem IMO.

I also agree with SGM the afras are a tough bunch and will usually get a bit aggressive. Add them last, if at all. If you include afras in your set-up you should really have a lot larger tank. You will need one anyway when the Venustus(great fish) grows.

Always add the most aggressive species last. It is also best to start with all juveniles and all at once. I believe your tank will become more harmonious if you do this. This is by no means new info, just common knowledge in the Cichlid world. I would add the afrsa after a couple of days. Thsi way they will start at the bottom of the pecking order and slowly work themselves up. Hopefully with a minimal disturbance to the others. Take a look at Labidochromis hongi, although careuleus is a lot easier to find. Actually the caruelues woulf be a better choice than the hongi, hongi coloration is a bit to close to most afras, carueleus is dicidedly different which would be of benefit to you and your tank mates.

Good luck and welcome, keep us up to date.
Also what kind of filtration do you have?

Regards,

Matt, IMHO I stay away from NaCl, unless it is for medicinal purposes. It is an element not normally seen in Malawi waters.

[merlyn2221]

And to stick my nose in, too, Tufa looks cool, but has a tendency to crumble up a bit sometimes. Just be aware of that when you are moving it around in the tank. Plus when the fish swim over it and pick at it, stuff flies off (small particles) into the water.

(Yes, I had rinsed and cleaned it thoroughly before it went into the tank!)

[thmandan22]

You could get about a 1/2in sifon hose and sifon it out i accadentaly do it somtimes during my gravel change.
(the smaller diameter makes the sifon stronger.)