species search

[Neal]

Matt, you should have never got me started. You recommended Lithochromis rufus as a possible choice for my new tank and now I'm driving myself nuts trying to locate them. I've spent many hours searching for cichlid breeders, cichlid importers, cichlid clubs, etc. I've emailed a hundred people and still have very few leads. At the moment, I have a few feelers out with people who might be able to track some down, but it doesn't look promising. Anybody have any ideas on where to locate this species? I searched under the names Lithochromis rufus as well as Haplochromis Red Pseudonigricans and many people that I have contacted are saying that they've been searching as well and can't locate any. I've emailed people all over the country AND a couple of other continents.....nothing! If I can get my hands on some, I will definitely set them up with their own large tank and probably even set up more large tanks for them. If they are that hard to locate, then they are definitely deserving of some serious efforts to preserve their limited gene pool.

[Matt V]

Blame StructureGuy and SGypsymermaid.

The two of them got me Victoria'ed.

I think part of the problem is that some Victorians breed like bunnies (to copy SGM's phrase) and some don't. I think the rufus might be harder to breed. If SGM and StructureGuy have had trouble getting them to procreate, what hope do us mortals have?

Anyway, Neal, good luck. If you can find them and breed them, I want to put my hold on fry in right now. Want some Haplochromis limax? I've got about a hundred fry. I wish I was exagerating.

Welcome to the Vic obsession. Be warned. It gets worse. I'm now also tracking down rare, F0 West African fish...

[Neal]

The problem is that I have this desire to propagate a Victorian species that is dwindling in numbers in the hobby. I've been keeping several of the more readily available species for years and I love them, but there are so many people breeding them that it doesn't seem like it really matters much whether or not I produce offspring. I've had plenty of nyererei and latisfasciata fry get eaten in the main tank because there didn't seem to be an urgent need to protect the gene pool.

This L. rufus, on the other hand, has me intrigued because successful spawnings could be an important step in preserving their limited gene pool.

I've made a lot of contacts in recent days and have determined that there are a few people out there who have some, but they are hard to locate and those who have them don't seem to be producing many offspring. It is, indeed, a rare animal in the hobby.

Several of the people I have contacted have told me that their males killed all of the females, so they were unable to get any fry. One guy told me that his males killed all of his females, so he gave the males to an LFS. I don't think StructureGuy has any anymore as he indicated that he received them in poor physical health and they didn't last long.

Perhaps this is a species which needs to have males and females physically separated in order to protect the female until she is ready to spawn. I breed a species of snake, which can be canabalistic toward its own species, so males and females must be kept in separate enclosures until they are ready to breed. This may well be what needs to be done with Lithochromis rufus???

GypsyMermaid: I understand that you may be keeping this species. If so, I wish you much luck in getting some fry out of them. It seems that you have a huge responsibilty on your shoulders to get these guys to make babies. You may have some of the very few in existance! I don't know what the situation is in the rest of the world, but it appears that there are very few of them alive in this country. I'd love to see some photos of yours if you don't mind posting them. That may be as close as I'll ever get to seeing any.

I'm not going to get my hopes up that I'll actually procure any individuals of this species, but I'll have a couple of tanks cycled and ready for them should I ever succeed in locating them.

I'll keep up the search, but with much less intensity than in recent days. A guy could go nuts trying to find these fish!

[StructureGuy]

Originally posted by Neal
Matt, you should have never got me started. You recommended Lithochromis rufus as a possible choice for my new tank and now I'm driving myself nuts trying to locate them.


Originally posted by Neal
A guy could go nuts trying to find these fish!


Now look what you've done to this poor guy, Matt.

Hey Neal. I've been looking for Thoracochromis braushi for over 6 years now. Could you find me some?

Kevin

[Neal]

Sure, I'll get right on it, Kevin.

I think I may be closing in on those Lithochromis. I found a promising lead today. If they're out there, I'm going to find them, eventually.

[Matt V]

Cool. Keep us apprised.

Especially if the lead has more.

:twisted:

[Neal]

I've been communicating with some major players in the cichlid hobby and I think I have a pretty good handle on the status of Lithochromis rufus......there aren't any! No, really, there are a few out there, somewhere, but people have had poor success with them and the numbers have fallen to the point where it looks like they will disappear from the hobby entirely unless somebody gets serious about making more. I'm willing to take that task upon myself if I could only get my hands on some. My girlfriend and her dad have seen how much I enjoy my fish and have suggested that I should get more tanks and start seriously producing fish for hobbyists. At least I've got the go ahead from her! I really don't have an interest in making it into a business. My focus is more on species conservation. My ultimate desire would be to simply stick to extremely rare species and produce fry to distribute to others.

I currently have the 75gal, a 55gal, a 20gal, and a 10. I have room in my house for one more big one, maybe a 180 or something, and then there is my garage........I could put a couple of seriously massive tanks out there!

For now, the Lithochromis remain elusive, but I have faith that they will materialize for me eventually and I'll make tons of fry and all of you Victorian guys will be first on my distribution list.

[SGypsyMermaid]

i've had a lot of bad luck with this species--some of it my own fault. with the first group, i lost nearly all the females to vicious a. nubila(the breeder told me to take the nubila out of the tank, but, stupidly, i didn't listen.) the next time, i had two females spawn, but i was too lazy to break down the tank to get them, so only 2 juvies survived from those two spawns. then, i added the pink and blue brichardi death squad to their tank("pretty, pretty, delicate-looking fish syndrome), and the juvies and one of the females was murdered in the rocks. then 1 male killed the other 2 males, so i'm left with one pair.

[Neal]

Take care of those fish, SGM. I think you have one of very few pairs in existance. I certainly can't tell you what to do with your animals, but if it were me, I would separate those fish into an environment which would promote spawning and try to make some babies. And if you do, please don't forget that I would be thrilled to get some potential breeding stock. I would even send you all of the shipping supplies you need, just to make it easy on you to ship me some. Good luck with them.

[Matt V]

Originally posted by Neal
My ultimate desire would be to simply stick to extremely rare species and produce fry to distribute to others.

'Tis a worthy goal and i can only encourage that - especially a species that looks like that.

I'm sorta there, too, but without that much space.

[SGypsyMermaid]

they are actually in a rock-filled 20 gal. long with a pair of tanzanian blue and white labs--they all hide all the time.

[Neal]

SGM: I really believe that you may have some of the last of the Lithochromis still alive in this country. I understand that there are some in Europe, but they are from a different collection point. I have literally sent out more than a hundred emails with inquiries about this species. I have contacted cichlid clubs as well as anyone who has been known to keep this species in the past.

What I have learned so far is this: Apparently there was a group of them brought into the US several years back. All fish of this species in the US are decended from this original group. I have had email discussions with people who had these original fish and have discovered that none of them has the species any longer. They were distributed through members of the Greater Cincinatti Aquarium Society, but in speaking with several members of that club, I have learned that nobody in that club has any Lithochromis anymore.

I recieved leads from the GCAS on tracking them down and ended up finding some of the people that they went to. Almost everybody had difficulty with getting them to spawn, but there have been several successful spawns by GCSA members as well as some of the others who had them. I discovered that the trail goes cold at this point except for the fact that the last guy who had them (I think he was in CA, but could be wrong...I'd have to go back and read the email again) said that he had successful spawns and ended up selling all of them on aquabid a couple of years ago or so. Perhaps, SGM, this is where yours came from? He said that he recalled sending them to New York, Texas, and Ohio. In my endeavors to track them down, the trail goes cold in Texas and Ohio, but SGM is in New York, so I'm assuming that she has the last remaining pair of this species. Of course there could be someone that nobody is aware of who is still keeping this species. I've contacted Cichlid clubs in Texas and have been told that they have been pursuing this species for some time now with no luck.

One of the original keepers of the fish from the GCAS has told me that his biggest difficulty was that these fish needed huge tanks in order to spawn. He said he had a group of 2 males and 3 females in a 150 gallon and the tank was too small. He said they could never establish territories within these small confines.

I don't think anybody really knows what the status of this species is in the lake. From what I understand, the majority of the original biodiversity of Lake Victoria has simply been wiped out. They may not even exist anymore! There is some talk of this speceis being kept by hobbyists in Europe, but it is only talk and I have no facts.

SGM, I hope I'm wrong, but you may be keeping the last of this species in the US. Perhaps the last of that collection point anywhere in the world. Who knows, maybe there are none anywhere and you have the only surviving pair???

I have had some major cichlid clubs send out emails to all of their membership with requests to contact me if anyone knows the whereabouts of Lithochromis rufus. So far, the answer is that nobody knows anything. I have dozens of emails streaming into my inbox everyday, and they are mostly sad stories about how those who had been keeping them have lost all of their stock and don't have any idea whether or not anyone else has any.

A 20 gallon long, shared by another species, may not be the ideal situation for a species that is in dire need of preservation. I encourage you to take advantage of the opportunity at hand and try to do all you can to promote spawning. Your fish will be getting up in age, so the time is now. Best of luck in making some fry.

[Matt V]

Interesting, neal.

Thanks for sharing and be sure to keep us posted on the search and what you end up getting.

[Neal]

well, Matt, the search actually seems to be going nowhere at all. I've resigned myself to the fact that I probably won't find them, so I'm beginning to think about plan B. I won't give up as I know they may still turn up somewhere and, if they do, I will do whatever is neccessary to have a tank for them. In the meantime, I need to start thinking about an alternative Victorian species to get started on. I've searched all over for Vics and there just are not many of anything available. Even the more common species don't seem to be abundant. And then there are those that seem to be simply non-existant on the market. It looks like maybe a person would have to travel to one of the larger club's auctions to find something extremely rare. I can locate sources for all the common Vics, but I can't find any of the less available stuff. I've been looking at pictures to try to come up with ideas. I've seen photos of something called Haplochromis/Paralabidochromis sp. Fire Red Uganda. A couple of the pics I saw were of some incredible males. I went on the hunt to locate a breeder who is selling them, but haven't found much yet. I've located several people who have them on their stock list, but indicate that none are available at this time. I found one place in Florida that appears to have them in stock. He is selling 1.5 inch fish at $11. each, so I guess I could get 23 fish for his required minimum of $250. Out of 23, I should end up with enough of both sexes to get a breeding group out of it. I'd end up with an awful lot of extra fish though.

Then again, I know nothing about this species except for the limited info I've found on the internet. I just know that they are nice looking animals and don't seem to be very common. I think I read that they are moderately to highly aggressive, so that should make it more of a challenge. Challenges are good and aggressive fish are cool! What do you guys know about these Fire Red Ugandans? Are they a good choice for a species tank and are they something that needs work to preserve the gene pool of what is currently available in the hobby?

I can see it now.......I'm gonna go on a quest for them and find out that nobody has any anywhere! Actually, they are just a momentary interest at this point. I discovered pics of them while looking for Lithochromis and have acquired desire to know more about them. In fact, this search for Lithochromis has taught me a whole bunch about the Victorian cichlids that are available in the hobby. I've located all sorts of good literature on Vics and have become much more knowledgeable of them over the course of this search. All of my life, I've had a problem with becoming completely consumed with something when I take an interest in it. I've done this with all sorts of stuff.... plants, animals, motorcycles, cars, music, etc. I end up knowing a little bit about a lot of things this way, I suppose.

Let me know if you guys have any opinions on the Fire Red Ugandans. My search for info on them is still in its infancy, so maybe I'll cut it short if somebody has a better idea. Any suggestions for another Vic species that is very uncommon, yet obtainable?

[Neal]

I did find the Fire Red Uganda listed at Armke's website, but I'm a bit leary of it because I read a post on a forum (might have even been this site) that indicated that the Fire Reds that Armke was sending out did not appear to really be Fire Red Ugandas. Anybody bought any from him?

[Matt V]

Really, aside from Astatilapia latifasciata, Haplochromis sp. "red tail thick skin", P. nyererei, A. nubilus and maybe P. sp. rock kribensis, I think most of the Vics are uncommon.

I'm sorta beholden to the two species I keep right now and it took some digging to come up with a supply of both.

This is a good discussion for me to have, too, as I'm looking for a third and fourth Victorian species to keep as well.

SGM has those Hap. sp. "blue bar" that are pretty neat.

As to the hap. sp. fire red ugandas, kevin has/had them.

http://www.african-cichlid.com/Fire_Red.htm

[StructureGuy]

It seems that some species become readily available, then disappear then come back again. I have this suspicion that Old World Exotic Fish has something to do with it. Based upon a talk I attended by Laif DeMason he mentioned that he distributes fish to the LFS when the fish are in demand, when the interest wanes, he pulls back a bit until the interest returns. (Not his words, but my understanding of something he said.) Sounds like a good businessman to me.

The fire red Ugandan was very readily available everywhere about five years ago and now I don’t see it very often. I would be surprised if you had trouble finding this species. My web site pictures are not a good indicator of how good this fish can look. I found this to be a relatively peaceful Victorian but I never found a good tank for them. They did breed easily and frequently but the male never colored up to his potential because they always lived with larger more aggressive species.

I’ve seen two slightly different looking cichlids called the fire red Ugandan. The Armke picture looks like one of them to me. I buy some of my vics from a member of the OCA. Here is a picture of his Hap “fire”

http://www.ohiocichlid.com/images_2/gallerypics/africa/lc-7.jpg

Kevin

[Neal]

Thanks for the info. So, I wonder if Laif Demason is holding out on us? He's probably got tanks full of Lithochromis rufus, huh? I hope so! StructureGuy, you say that you've seen two slightly different looking fish called Fire Red Uganda. Would you say there is enough difference that you would suspect that they are a different subspecies or perhaps one is a hybrid? Is the Armke fish typical of most of what is being called Fire Red Uganda? I'm may be traveling through New Braunfels, Texas right after Thanksgiving and might stop in at Armke's and pick up some fish, but I'm having trouble making up my mind right now.

In fact, I'm still not very knowledgable about the whole Victorian Haplochromis revision of taxonomy and from what I understand, it is not very clear cut at all. It seems that I see a lot of animals listed with a genus name followed by "sp." and then a "common name", such as Fire Red. From my days in biology class, I recall that "sp." simply indicates that it is a species of this genus, but does not give any further specific info than that. I don't own any reference books on any African cichlids and have learned everything I know through internet searches and forums like this. Most of my searches have turned up the name Paralabidochromis sp. Fire Red Uganda. Armke actually calls this Fire Red Uganda, Haplochromis sp. Muhuru. Its all so confusing that I'm having a hard time figuring out whether or not these common names are actually referring to the same animal.

Update to this post: I've done some investigating and that Hap. sp. muhura is a totally different animal. You guys probably already knew that. Perhaps it is a typo at Armke's???

[SGypsyMermaid]

Originally posted by Neal
It seems that I see a lot of animals listed with a genus name followed by "sp." and then a "common name", such as Fire Red. From my days in biology class, I recall that "sp." simply indicates that it is a species of this genus, but does not give any further specific info than that. this usually means that the species has not been officially described(morphologically), and has only been assigned to a genus, so the common/trade name or the location is used as the temporary species name.



Originally posted by Neal
Its all so confusing that I'm having a hard time figuring out whether or not these common names are actually referring to the same animal. i feel your pain--we've all been there...unfortunately, it is part of the victorian obsession. on a positive tip, you'll learn a lot in your search for those elusive answers.

:wink:

[Neal]

I know that there can be a fine line as to what constitutes a good species and many times, the nomenclature is revised as more info comes available. For instance, there is a species of snake that I collect which has gone through some taxonomical revision over the years. It has two quite distinct color morphs. At one time, they were believed to be two separate species. We now know that there are simply color and pattern varitations within the species and an animal of one type will freqently have offspring of the other type, even when both parents look completely different from the offspring. There are many other examples of color and pattern variation within species of snakes, yet we know that they are the same species. These color variations are often associated with locality, but still occur within local populations.

So many of these Vic species look similar that I'm wondering just how definite the separation between "species" is. I would be interested in acquiring a good reference book that addresses the morphological characters that have been evaluated in distinguishing these fish of the same genus with different trade names. Anybody know of a good one?

[StructureGuy]

Originally posted by Neal
So, I wonder if Laif Demason is holding out on us? He's probably got tanks full of Lithochromis rufus, huh?

I doubt it. (My LFS just got a shipment from Old World. They have rock kribs, blue bars, igneopinnis, and flamebacks at the moment.)


Originally posted by Neal
It seems that I see a lot of animals listed with a genus name followed by "sp." and then a "common name", such as Fire Red. From my days in biology class, I recall that "sp." simply indicates that it is a species of this genus, but does not give any further specific info than that.

The sp. “TempName” is a placeholder until it gets classified. The TempName is usually a location, a color or a unique physical feature. Most vics will never be classified, because they only work with wild caught and not tank rasied species.


Originally posted by Neal
You say that you've seen two slightly different looking fish called Fire Red Uganda. Would you say there is enough difference that you would suspect that they are a different subspecies or perhaps one is a hybrid

I don’t know. I’ve wondered if maybe there is a Haplochromis sp “fire red Ugandan” and a Haplochromis sp “fire” since I’ve seen them referenced two different ways.


Originally posted by Neal
I would be interested in acquiring a good reference book that addresses the morphological characters that have been evaluated in distinguishing these fish of the same genus with different trade names. Anybody know of a good one?

The best book is “Lake Victoris Rock Cichlids” by Ole Seehausen. The only drawback is that it is limited to Victorians in the southern part of the lake near Tanzania. There is also “Lake Victoria Basin Cichlids” by Mark Phillip Smith but it is just a tiny little paperback.

Kevin

[Neal]

So, what exactly is the law concerning the import/export of fish from Lake Victoria? I know there is political unrest in the region and that some species are classified as threatened or endangered, but I understand that it is believed that some of the native species do continue to live and reproduce in the lake. Is anyone attempting to collect any for captive breeding? Seems like I read something that was written by Laif Demason a few years ago, stating that a few fish were finally being collected from Lake Victoria. Where do these fish go and who is able to do this?

Is it simply too dangerous for people to venture into Lake Victoria for collecting purposes? I know that the destruction of the lake's biodiversity was brought about largely by the introduction of non-native fishes. This seems to be economically motivated, so why is it that these same "business" people might not see the value of the ornamental fish market and attempt to collect them for export to hobbyists? I just don't know much about it, so I am wondering why there seems to have been a complete halt to the collection of new fish from the Lake. Is it outlawed or is it something else?

It seems to me that if species are dwindling by the day, someone would be rushing to collect specimens for preservation of the gene pools. Maybe this is exactly what is happening and I am simply unaware of it.

I'd love to hear details from someone who knows.

[SGypsyMermaid]

Originally posted by StructureGuy
The best book is “Lake Victoris Rock Cichlids” by Ole Seehausen. The only drawback is that it is limited to Victorians in the southern part of the lake near Tanzania. There is also “Lake Victoria Basin Cichlids” by Mark Phillip Smith but it is just a tiny little paperback.

Kevin

you might also be interested in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262571218/103-5516915-8938208?v=glance

[StructureGuy]

Cliff notes version (as I understand it):
Introduce the Nile Perch to create a fishing industry
cut down lots of trees to smoke the fish
erosion carries agricultural runoff into the lake
population increases=> dump raw sewage into lake
nutrients in the lake cause boom in water hyacinth & algae growth
overpopulation of plants blocks the sunlight and reduces the oxygen
water becomes murky & fish can't find a mate (some hybridize)
overfishing reduces the Nile Perch population
some native victorians make a modest comeback but basic problem still exists.

The last that I heard, the collection of victorians was permitted for scientific purposes only.

Kevin

[Neal]

Hey, thanks guys! I'm going to order that book, SGM, and I think I'll get a copy of Ole Seehausen's book as well. I'm tired of having this empty tank sitting here, waiting on the ever elusive Lithochromis, so I think I might just pick up a sack full of those little Fire Red Ugandas from Armke's when I go through there next week. What the heck? If I don't like them, I'll just get another tank and try another species. For that matter, perhaps I'll get another tank and try something else even if I do like them.

So, it seems that a situation exists where the native Victorians have made a modest comeback, but are still not abundant enough to allow their collection for hobbyists. Still, if cloudy waters are causing increases in hybridization, it would seem prudent to allow some of the "pure" species to be collected for preservation of their genetic integrity. If the situation is continuing to escalate, then why not save a few of these animals and allow them to continue to exist in captivity? Seems like it would only require a very low number of individuals to initially get a captive breeding population established. Are there not any captive breeding programs taking place on the shores of the Lake itself?

I guess I need to get these books and read them myself before I start asking all these questions.

[Matt V]

I think the water in and around Lake Victoria is also crapped up pretty good.

what kevin didn't mention and that i read somewhere - the source eludes me right now - is that as the population of nile carp (lates somethingorotherii) declined, the populations around lake victoria sought ways to catch the diminishing population of a resource they had come to depend on and started using poisons in the lake and caused a further significant degradation of the lake's quality to the point where a couple of nations - kenya and tanzania i think - just plain stopped allowing ANYTHING out of the lake.

it is unfortunate as the three countries that surround Lake Victoria are relatively free of the political and (to a certain extent, it is africa, after all) economic turmoil in places on lakes malawi and tanganyika. a lakeside breeding program could be beneficial to local economies especially with the crash of the nile perch population. but from what i've read, the lake is too far gone for such a thing to be considered.

[Matt V]

if you want a whole lot of info -

http://www.worldlakes.org/lakedetails.asp?lakeid=8361

[Neal]

Wow, Matt! That site has answered all of my questions and then some. There is a lot to learn there, so I anticipate spending many hours reading though this info. What a great find that site is! Its already planted a new seed in my mind.....more about that later.....

[Matt V]

new seed? Share!!!!

I think i've posted that somewhere else, but it's worth reposting.

There's good stuff on other African Lakes as well. g

[Neal]

I'm swamped with things to do today and my mind is overloaded, so I don't have much time to develop my idea, but things should calm down soon and I'll have a chance to work on it. Then I'll share.....

[Matt V]

Cool. I've got an idea stewing, too. you share, i share. ;)

[StructureGuy]

Originally posted by StructureGuy
I've been looking for Thoracochromis braushi for over 6 years now.
Kevin

And today I found them!

Kevin

[SGypsyMermaid]

congrats!!!