what is too much for my tank??

[lil-crab]

hello fellow hobbiest,

What I want to know is how much can I put into my tank without risking over crowding stress? I have a 113 gal tank 60"x24"x18", right now i have approx. 30 cichlids 4 elect yellow 1", 6 elect blue 1", 2 red zebras 1", 1scolif. 1.5".
6 moori(blue dolphin) avg. 2.5", 1 kenyi 2", 2 cobalt blue 1" n 2", 1 pleco 2.5", unknown 4-5", 2 brich 1", 4 unknow 1"..

Can I put more???

[WorldNation]

i would think thats pretty much it:)

[matt1066]

lil-crab,

I agree as well, electric yellow=Lab caruleus?, electric blue=Sci fryeri?

Once grown to adulthood, you will have a maxed out tank. Also a nice one.

Regards,

Matt

[fOx]

I hate to be the pessimist... but you're tank is way overcrowded in a bad way!!! If I were you I would get rid of about 4 of those Mooris now, or soon. When full grown they will be between 8 and 16 inches each depending on the sex. I have seen some as big as 18 inches (I have said before they are like Frontosa that way). In my opinon, jamming those fish into your tank (right now they are not jammed but in a year and abit they will be, will cause you nothing but heartache.

just my 0.02 cents.

fOx

[matt1066]

fOX,

would that $.02 U.S. or CAD :lol:

As usual you are right about the stocking level, you are a pragmatist.

I want to know what you biggest lapse of judgement has been, regarding fish stock?

regards,

Matt

[FishoPhile J]

fox said:
you're tank is way overcrowded in a bad way!!! I would get rid of about 4 of those Mooris now,

my $.02(cad): you don't need less fish... you need more water! (if 113gal is good, 226 is way better- and it'll cure aboot any heartache)

[lil-crab]

I hate to be the pessimist... but you're tank is way overcrowded in a bad way!!! If I were you I would get rid of about 4 of those Mooris now, or soon. When full grown they will be between 8 and 16 inches each depending on the sex. I have seen some as big as 18 inches (I have said before they are like Frontosa that way). In my opinon, jamming those fish into your tank (right now they are not jammed but in a year and abit they will be, will cause you nothing but heartache.

just my 0.02 cents.

fOx


thanks for the 0.02 cents,.

I thought so, and wasn't too sure. I was going to get 2 frontosa, but now I guess not unless I move 4 of the smaller species to my 33 gal. tank: or trade in my 5" unknow, I think he's at his max size, then he might be get a slight bigger.

[fOx]

Matt, that would be 0.02 Canadian which worth aboot a tiny piece of American belly-button lint (give or take a thread).
As for the predictions, I learned the hard way. It always looks like your tank is empty when the fish are little, but once they start growing into adults all of a sudden everything is just jammed!

I have a real problem, because I don't see them as just fish. I took on the responsibility of bringing these guys home. By doing so I promised to look after them. They are my responsibility, if I couldn't take care of them I shouldn't have brought them home to begin with. As a result of my thinking, I never take fish back to the petstore, I try to work out my problems myself.

I have this image that, if I take some back, they will end up in someone else's tank who really won't give a damn about them. So I do my best. And yes I am pessimistic when it comes to stocking levels, but when you are dealing with some of the big species (ie: Fronts and Dolphins) you really do have to be careful and keep the fishes best interest in mind.

Take care....

fOx

[fOx]

Oh, and Lil-Crab.... forget about the Frontosa in that tank!

You are way too enthusiastic. I know as well ad anyone that there are lots of beautiful cichlids, but you really can't have them all (unless you get a buch of 1000 gallon aquariums). Just pick a few of your favourites and go with that.

fOx

p.S.- I have finally got my hands on our digital camera, I'll post some pictures of my tank this weekend.

[lil-crab]

Then I really have a problem, cause most of them are my favorite. I just got this 113 gal tank just for them, and up graded from a 33 gal..

The thing is also I've been told one of the best thing to do to keep aggression low is to over stocking them. Is this not what they meant?

[lil-crab]

Well here a little update; I've manage to find a buyer for some of my fish.
So tell me if my new stock level is o.k...?

2- electric yellow@1"
6- moori(blue dolphin@3"
3-frontosa@1"
2-red zebra@1"
3-electric blue ahli@5"
1-kenyi@3"
2-cobalt blue@3" and 1"
1-pleco@3"
1-unknown@5"
2-unknown @1"


Alli n in a 113+ gal. tank, is that spread out enough or can I still keep or put more or less?? :?

[Overawed]

It probably looks like you could but more in, but remember those Fronts and Mooris grow to be rather large.

[FishoPhile J]

Overawed said:
It probably looks like you could but more in, but remember those Fronts and Mooris grow to be rather large.

-- remember, it's not the total number that matters, it's the water to fish (mass) ratio that makes the difference... you could have an overstocked 113gal with only 10 fish if they were all big enough.

[fOx]

I hate to crash on this parade, but you are going to have 9 10-inch fish in about a year's time! No offense, but you really have to cut back on the moori's + fronts... for your tank, I wouldn't keep anymore than 5 (alltogether) and in order to do that you will have get rid of a lot of the others :cry: ...

sorry to be the hardass realist here, but your fish won't be able to move once they hit adulthood...

Oh and yes some moori males (only males have lumps) will hit 18-inches.

fOx

[lil-crab]

Overawed said:It probably looks like you could but more in, but remember those Fronts and Mooris grow to be rather large.

-- remember, it's not the total number that matters, it's the water to fish (mass) ratio that makes the difference... you could have an overstocked 113gal with only 10 fish if they were all big enough.

Thanks for the replies.
How or what is the proper formula to calculate the proper mass and amont of fish..? The Hagen beginner hand book says 1"=1gal, but I really think that's B.S. Yet to have a reply to what do people mean by over stoking to keep aggression down..?

I have seen this one breeder kept 30 fishes including moori ,all are fully grown in his 70 gal.tank and his comment was that "I if you are not experiencing any problems then, it's o.k" as long as you have proper filtration and or do more frequent water changes. What do you guys and girls think about that?

One other question; How long will it take for a frontosa to get to approx. 5" I know that not there full size which is approx 10"

[fOx]

Your fist question has been answered already.... as for the Front question, mine hit 9" in little over 12 months, but he's not done growing yet....

fOx

[FishoPhile J]

--you have a point here... if it's not broken, it doesn't need to be fixed right? i'll probably open a can of worms with this one, but i don't think there is really any "right" way to determine how much (or keep them at all, for that matter)... i went to the Steinheart aquarium (san fran) not too long ago, and they had a SAmer tank full of convicts, other cichlids, plecos, cat fish, and those Huge eel looking fish. my fisrt thought was 'how the hell do they keep these 24-36in catfish from eating all the cichlids?' and the truth is they don't. at the root level keeping fish (regardless of size/ number) is only to add water and food. if you have your heart set on your group, by all means go for it, but don't get discouraged when casualites occur (which they most likely will). personally, i don't see any problem with the omlette and eggs approach to cichlids, they are quite mean to each other because thats how evolution made them (fish eat fish world, so to speak)... who are we to argue that we know whats 'right'? at best, this forum can only relate personal experience, and for fOx (no offense... just an example) that has had problems, i'm sure there are equally as many who break the 'rules' and get off scott free. i have a friend who keeps mbunas, oscars, and discus together with no problems, but i'm sure this forum would tell him he's out of his mind.

[fOx]

You're right and your wrong....

Keeping too many fish is one thing, and inadvertant casulties is another. knowingly keeping too many big fish in a small tank that will soon be a sardine can is unethical, a moral and goes against everything that we as fishkeepers strive for. I was in an LFS once when a woman walked in and said she thought the Yellow Tang was pretty and she wanted one. The store keeper immediatley fished one out and bagged it, as he was walking to the counter to tie the bag he asked if she would be keeping the fish with others. Her answer, "oh just a couple goldfish I've had kicking around for a while." The shopkeeper gasped, I and everyone else in the place stopped and turned. He then said, "you can't keep saltwater fish is freshwater!" Her reply, "water is water and money is money, give me the damn fish and you get your money!" Thank goodness the shopkeeper had some morals, he turned her away.

The moral to the story is this. No matter what you want to keep in your tank there comes a time, when size, water peramitres, or current inhabitants pose a problem for new additions. The lady in the store was being stupid, but she illustrates this point perfectly. I'm sorry, but I was asked for my opinion and my opinion is, in a 115 gallon tank, you cannot keep all of those fish, especially the ones that will turn into monsters ie: the Fronts and the Dolphins. Just like the woman in the store (albeit not as blatant) keeping all of those fish in one tiny tank (and when they big that tank will be tiny) is a death sentence. Inadvertant deaths caused by aggression, sickness, otherwise is common and there is nothing you can do about it. But deliberatly cramming fishes into your tank because you think they look pretty, is dumb and amoral (like the braniac at the petstore who thinks water is water). The other problem is, I don't know a lot of fishstores who want to carry grown Fronts/Dolphins. They are tough to find a home for. Most people, breeders aside, want babies. So even if your thinking, I'll take some fish back later, you're not doing the fish any favours and you're shirking your responsibility to take care of an animal you've bought.
FishoPhile J the one thing I agree with is your statement of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" In my opinion, again we were all asked, Lil crabs tank is broken and needs to be fixed.

sorry about the rant, but I get mad when people don't take this hobby seriously and then immediately start to cry the second they have problems.

fOx

[Overawed]

Good post Fox

[FishoPhile J]

-to clarify: i agree with fox 99.95%. I don't think it's a good idea to keep that stock (personally, i don't keep any fish that get that big), and his moral analogy was right on the money. we keep fish because we care about them and enjoy their company. nobody likes it when their pet dies, nor would we voluntarily do anything to hurt them. unfortunately, unlike the fish store owner, we can not know for certian that lil crab's fish will die. they will get big; it will be cramped, but if other members can have an overstocked, cramped 50gal slam full of grown cichlids without problems, there's no garantee that lil crab's will be any different.
lil crab- it seems we can agree that your fish will most likely be happier if they are not that cramped, and fox is right about finding a home for the adults, it would be much easier now than a year from now... good luck on your decisions & one way or the other, we're all with you.

[lil-crab]

Fox you're not ranting, you're trying to help me out and I'm grateful. Also you have a good point, however my trying not to "sardine" my fish that's the reason why I'm on here is to get fellow hobbiest opions and in the end
it's not only the fish thats' is hurting, but also my wallet if I "sardine" my fishes. I like cichlids, but I also love my wallet. :wink: Personally I dont' think a 60"x24"18 is tiny, and yes it's not a280 gal , but never the less it's not a 70-90 gal like most people have for cichlids. I also wanted to know how what size of tank you have fox and how many fish you keep?

The main reason for for this thread is so I can find out if I can put more fish in the tank considering that they are still small and when and if the time comes that I notice the tank is too samll like my other tank 33 gal. I will either get another tank like I got this one because my 33 gal couldn't cut it; or I might trade them in to friend who owns a store. The last thing i want is for my fish to die, that's can be costly. I'm not like the lady in the store you were describing, cause I don't have money to throw away like that; Yellow Tang aren't cheap they are approx. $40 cdn.

[lil-crab]

-to clarify: i agree with fox 99.95%. I don't think it's a good idea to keep that stock (personally, i don't keep any fish that get that big), and his moral analogy was right on the money. we keep fish because we care about them and enjoy their company. nobody likes it when their pet dies, nor would we voluntarily do anything to hurt them. unfortunately, unlike the fish store owner, we can not know for certian that lil crab's fish will die. they will get big; it will be cramped, but if other members can have an overstocked, cramped 50gal slam full of grown cichlids without problems, there's no garantee that lil crab's will be any different.
lil crab- it seems we can agree that your fish will most likely be happier if they are not that cramped, and fox is right about finding a home for the adults, it would be much easier now than a year from now... good luck on your decisions & one way or the other, we're all with you.

By the way thank you for that post, it's comforting to see the other side of the coin. :)

[fOx]

I have a 55 gallon, 4-foot long. And I have 12 fish in it. Four of them are little kennyi's/lombardoi that are all full grown at 3" or less a piece. But I have one Frontosa 6", a Venustus 3.5", an electric yellow 3" (lab) and an electric Blue 3", a breeding pair of Flamebacks (peacocks) 2.5", an auratus 2.5" and a bumblebee 6".

It should also be noted that these fish have been kept together for years now, the front was my latest addition about a year and a half ago. I have no problems with agression, the kennyi's like to chase one another and the Bumblebee is the master of the tank. They all have plenty of room to swim around and hide. Until they start to die off (from old age god-willing) then I'm not adding any more to this tank...

You asked and I answered. My tank is about half the size of yours and I have less than one-third the amount of fish in it. And only one monster fish. I also have a vacant 40 gallon that I may consider pulling out in a year or so to keep the front in exclusivley.

fOx

[jonah]

Your fist question has been answered already.... as for the Front question, mine hit 9" in little over 12 months, but he's not done growing yet....

fOx

Okay, now I'm a little confused. Your front's 9" here, you've had him for a year and a half, and in your last post's it's 6". Are you talking about the same fish? How big was it when you got it? :?

Also, if the front is the last fish you added 1 1/2 years ago, then your electric blue must have been tiny when you got it to only be 3" now. Around here the lfs sells them about 2-2 1/2". Mine was 2" when I bought it 15 months ago, and now it's about 5". Are you listing in standard lengths (minus fins)? That would explain the small size.

I'm not looking for argument, just clarification. :?

[jonah]

I have a 55 gallon, 4-foot long. And I have 12 fish in it. Four of them are little kennyi's/lombardoi that are all full grown at 3" or less a piece. But I have one Frontosa 6", a Venustus 3.5", an electric yellow 3" (lab) and an electric Blue 3", a breeding pair of Flamebacks (peacocks) 2.5", an auratus 2.5" and a bumblebee 6".

It should also be noted that these fish have been kept together for years now, the front was my latest addition about a year and a half ago.

fOx

I couln't figure out how to add it to the other post.

[fOx]

I'm not looking to argue.. I'm sitting at work and trying to approximate the size of my fish and I deal in centimetres, so doing the whole inches thing is a little tricky for me. And no I didn't count the fin length (maybe I should, I can be so scatterbrianed about this stuff) when I am talking about my fish. Fins can vary from junvinile to juvinile some longer, some shorter.
Anyways, my Front is the largest in my tank (albeit not aggressive) and yes he's between 7 and 8 inches long (no he's not done growing yet)... I have pictures that I am trying to post but I can't find a Web host and I don't want to pay a monthly fee.... (Blah, Blah, Blah) I think he was about 3 inches when I brought him home about a year and a half ago. Come to think of it he's grown pretty quickly.

And yes, my electric blue was tiny when I brought him home. He was like 2.5 centimetres (about an inch) and with no colour. The fish store actually mistook him for a kennyi. To approximate he is just over 3 inches, maybe a little more, if you count his tail fin he's over 4. I guess I should become more familiar with Imerpial measurements LOL! :P

fOx

[jonah]

And yes, my electric blue was tiny when I brought him home. He was like 2.5 centimetres (about an inch) and with no colour. The fish store actually mistook him for a kennyi. To approximate he is just over 3 inches, maybe a little more, if you count his tail fin he's over 4. I guess I should become more familiar with Imerpial measurements LOL! :P

fOx

Wow, that was tiny! Sounds like some of the fish stores here. :lol:

The measurement thing always throws me. I know I should do it in SL, but most people don't, so I don't either. If I had to throw in Imperial measurements on top of that, I'd really lose it. :x

I have the benifit of being home looking at my tanks now. I've been home sick for the past two days, so of course it's a great time to change some water on the tanks while I fiddle around with my new cable modem. :wink:

[fOx]

That sounds great... I'm jealous. I think I feel a cold coming on (like a fishy kinda watching thingy, yeah)... Cough! I need to go home and play with my computer and fish... LOl

have fun and get well soon...

fOx :roll:

[lil-crab]

From my understanding Venustus gets to be pretty big too, I saw one at a fish store approx 8-9 " and it's very nice fully grown, I think it's fully grown. Just stright something out I don't have 2/3 nore than you(fox), I've lost a few due to the Ick. :(

I have 6 moori @ 3- 3.5 ", 2 salousi (hmm spelling..?)I thought it was a eclectric yellow. :oops: 1 pseudotropheus( I think @5") 3 eclectric blue @ 1-1.5", 1 kenyi@3", 1 cobalt blue @ 3", 3 frontosa@1", 3 unknown @ 1-1.5" but they will only get full grown approx. 4-5" , and1 pleco @3.5".
For a total of 22 fish.

Oh ya, the few other small cichlids, I gave it to my dad wich has it a 33 gal.