ISHMAELI VS THICKSKIN VS SP. 44--all A.K.A. OBLIQUEDENS

[SGypsyMermaid]

i see a lot of discussions around the net suggesting that these 3 fish are the same species. i have labrochromis ishmaeli and hap. sp.44, and though they are similar, i have no difficulty distinguishing between them. describing those differences is, however, another matter. i would like to take a shot at it though. these observations are not scientific, just what i notice when comparing the fish.

the caudal peduncle of the sp. 44 is longer than that of the ishmaeli.

the end of the caudal peduncle of the sp. 44 has a black stripe which extends into the caudal fin. this fin is black and red.

the end of the caudal peduncle of the ishmaeli is the same greenish gold as the ground color and some of this color extends into the caudal fin. this fin is greenish gold and red.

the ishmaeli has a deeper chest than the sp. 44.

the black body stripes of the sp. 44 are about twice as broad and are irregularly shaped as compared to the ishmaeli which has thinner, more regularly shaped stripes. also, the stripes of the sp. 44 extend partway into the dorsal fin, not so in the ishmaeli.


the sp. 44 has two black stripes across the snout, and two across the top of the head, both of which the ishmaeli lacks.(as the ishmaeli has aged, this is no longer true.)

the yellow ground color of the ishmaeli has a much greener tint than that of the sp. 44: the color is more a brassy gold instead of the yellow of the sp. 44.

and let me just say that it is very difficult to get a lateral view of a fish that is is looking at you just as intensely as you are looking at it! :confused:

this fish looks like a cross between my sp.44 and my ishmaeli--is this perhaps a 'thickskin'?

http://www.fishmaniac.com/Merchant2/products/cichlids/victoria/hap_obliquidens.jpg

now, these two are labelled 'thickskin':

http://www.africancichlids.net/H_thickskin/H_thickskin2.jpg
http://www.africancichlids.net/H_thickskin/H_thickskin3.jpg

this one looks most like my sp.44:

http://www.reshafim.org.il/fishfarm/haplochromis.jpg

this is the closest to my ishmaeli (though it has the bars on the head and snout which my fish lack)[actually, my fish have developed the bars]:

http://www.gbasonline.org/images/Haplochromis_Ishmaeli.jpg

[Overawed]

Beautiful fish! Thanks for the info. I am thinking about a Vic tank, its just seems like the thing to do. The fish are beautiful and in keeping them we can prolong the species lifespan in a small way.


Perhaps aquarist can re-stock the lake!

[Scotty]

The whole debate of what exactly defines seperate species is part of the fun of keeping Victoria cichlids :) In his book, "The Cichlid Fishes", Barlow states that any two groups that, under natural conditions, will not interbreed due to female sexual selection should be considered seperate species. How far along the speciation is can be left to the genetecists :wink:


One of the many tradgedies of Lake Victoria is the loss to science. Compared to Malawi and Tanganykia it's only an eyeblink old (350K years as opposed to millions for the other two). What a squandered opportunity to research evolution, speciation, and what was probably going in in the other two lakes a few million years ago :(

Sgypsymermaid- I think your detailed observations make a good case for them being seperate species. Victoria cichlids are so recently radiated that the differences will be subtle. I've noticed some differences in the fry of two of my species that are highly similar as adults. That's exactly the kind of thing that only time and close observation will bring out. Keep up the good work 8) I've been meaning to start a journal that details my observations, and I think you've inspired me to actually start it!

[SGypsyMermaid]

scott--what are the two species that you are talking about--and what are the differences that you have noticed in their fry?---and thanks for the 'thumbs up'! :mrgreen:

[Scotty]

The fish I'm referring too are Hap. Sp. Bloyeti Green, and Hap. Sp. Christmas Fulu. As adults, the fulus have more red, and in a dfferent pattern than the Bloyetis.


I started noticing that the Fulu females spit more, but smaller young. This has held true for several unrelated females of both species. The Bloyeti fry get darker and more prominantly barred at a smaller size, while the Fulus tend to stay lighter, and more "translucent" longer. I find this pretty amazing considering how similar they are as adults.

In my experience, if they were just different color morphs of the same species you wouldn't see this. I've bred different color strains of Guppies, Angels, and others. The eggs and young are always identical until they start coloring up. I also maintain them in the same size setups, with the same maintenance routines and food, so that shouldn't be a factor.

This brings up the interesting possibility that I'm watching the early stages of speciation at work right in my living room 8) What nuances in the niche that each of these two fish (that we're once the same species) inhabit would cause evolution to select the trait of more, smaller young for one group? I wish I could load my dive gear, and myself, into a time machine so I could go see for myself!

[SGypsyMermaid]

following is the content of an e-mail that i received in response to a query that i sent to a seller on aquabid who has an auction that i am interested in. i asked him to read this thread and give me his opinion. he graciously allowed me to reprint his response here. i believe that it is a stimulating addition to our discussion:

After seeing your discriptions and the pics in one place i would have to say that mine are most like the ones you say area cross between the sp. 44 and the ishmaeli. This is however only the dominant male. If I were to give a guess, I would say that all are the same fish from different collection points, maybe different lakes that have lost access over the year, and that the fish are starting to change to there new surroundings. i would discount the thickskin altogther, from what I understand that this is the true obliquidens and that they are extinct in the wild and are extinct or extremely rare in the hobby. I know that the Boston Aquarium victorian exhibit has these fish labeled as species 44 redtail ( I just found this out about 2 days ago when a fellow aquarist came over to buy some fish). The only reason that I ended up with these particular fish is that a friend of mine went to a local wholesaler and these were labeled as zebra obliquidens of which I am trying to get a breeding colony going, and he bought them for me. But i would argue that the fish in those pictures are all the same just look at Apistogramma Aggissizi there are at least 10 different color morphs with just as many collection points.

[Scotty]

Interesting 8) The response leaves me with more questions than answers though. When he says, "They look like the same species, but from different collection points", on what does he base that opinion? I just read that they might classify Cobalt Zebras as a different species. How much longer have they been studying Mbunas and they still aren't sure what's what yet :? Keeping the degraded state of Lake Victoria in mind (might be no backsies if we screw it up), do we start crossing them indiscriminately, or do we play it safe and keep them seperate until we're sure? How long a period of seperation is required before we consider them seperate species? Maybe it's variable depending on how different the isolated habitats are. I would err on the side of caution if you're not sure and keep the groups seperate. Of course, the biggest question of all is " Why do I keep Victoria Cichlids, guppies would be so much easier :rofl:

[Boilermaker]

Hi!, here's some more questions for you Victorian Gurus.
Can you be sure there even from the same lake? Or is that just the flamebacks that come out of Victoria and Edwards?
I was looking at flame backs out of Edwards at the lfs. :shock:
And Sgypsy He has a VicColbalt there, honest :shock: .
Scotty, I can't help to think its already screwed up just by looking at what the lfs does. Everything that is remotely close to Obliquidens is thrown in the same tank.
And then I'm looking at Sunshine Peacocks from A Florida fish farm that look like a JaMalBenga Sunshine :? Go figure.

[Scotty]

Hey All 8) You've unfortunately got a point BM, I'm sure a lot of damage has already been done :x The breeders response to SGM indicates that his fish might already be hybridized, or possibly SGM's fish are and that's why her pics don't look exactly like his fish.

More than just the two fish you mentioned could come from the lake proper as well as other areas. The whole basin is a confusing mish mosh of lakes and rivers that must have been connected in the recent (geologically speaking) past. My Bloyeti's for instance, are found in several areas, and being riverine fish, can even be found in the Nile. I have no idea where mine came from, so if I want to introduce new blood to my line, I have to go through the process of raising the new ones to adulthood in a seperate tank to be sure they're the same thing. Adding to the whole problem is the fact that the basin hasn't been fully explored.

[Sean]

Well let me put my two cents in to the whole discussion. First let me start by saying that Lake Victoria is now believed to be only 12,500 years old. Which makes the evolution of species in the lake that much more amazing.

As far as the great Hap. obliquidens debate. Here is my opinion. There are a number of hybrids being traded under this name and causing great confusion to the whole thing. I believe that there are still some true fish out there which are probably actually sp. 44 red tails. Haplochromis obliquidens probably doesn't exist in the hobby. I think quite sometime ago probably when sp. 44 was first introduced in the hobby it was introduced as Hap obliquidens then at some point in time a distributor probably distributed Astatotilapia latifasciata "Zebra Obliquidens" under the shortened name obliquidens. I think these two fish have been crossed to a point where you see a lot of fish that have wider or different numbers of bars.

As far as Labrochromis ishmaeli, I really don't know how it got mixed up in the whole mess. The real Labrochromis ishmaeli in no way shape or form resembles the fish that is being commonly traded as ishmaeli. To start with the head on Labrochromis ishmaeli is much more blunt, much like the sp. Salmon. The body coloration is just gold with faint black bars no other colors. I wish I could post Paul Loiselle's photo that Les Kaufman sent to me but unfortunately I cannot get ahold of Dr. Loiselle to get permission to post it on the web. I only know of one hobbyist in the US that has the actual Labrochromis ishmaeli but his fry are still to young to photograph. We don't mess with photographing the species unless if for some reason the fish freaked out there would be some kind of back up colony. No reason to take any chances.

If you keep an eye on my website I will eventually have a photo of the correct ishmaeli on it.

http://www.theaquariumexchange.com/vcichlids.html

Hopefully this will add some enlightenment to the situation.

Sean

[Boilermaker]

Welcome Sean and thanks for the post, I think SGypsy is gonna like this :) Also great website.

[SGypsyMermaid]

hi sean--thanks for joining the discussion--you make some interesting points--can't wait to see your photo. does it look anything like this?:

http://www.gcca.net/fom/fom_pix/haplochromis_ishmael.jpg

[Sean]

No that is definately not it. I have done some web searching and come up with this photo. It is not the best in the world but it should give you an idea. The ishmaeli does not have a blue/grey head like the other fish it is being lumped in with.

www.aqua-z.de/ishmaeli_1a.jpg

[jonah]

Hey Sean, it's me jonah (Michael Dennis).

What took you so long to find the site? I've been meaning to tell you about it, but every time we talk, it's all about marine tanks. The purple gorgonian is doing good. :D

Sean's a real hardcore cichlid guy who's garage is a local legend in Oklahoma. How many tanks, Sean? About a hundred? :shock:

My wife flipped when I talked about buying a couple of 30's out of the paper. :(

[Sean]

Not quite a hundred. I think at last count around 85. Thanks for the compliment Boilermaker.

[SGypsyMermaid]

jonah--just follow the instructions that i gave to boilermaker and your wife will probably buy the tanks for you. :wink:

[jonah]

She's already agreed to the tanks. :D I just have to work out the funding. I always treat Sandra good so it's just a matter of time until I get my way. It helps that her birthday gift cost more than usual too. :wink:

I'm thinking of doing shellies or Victorias this fall. :confused: Both? :confused:

But not together.

[SGypsyMermaid]

both!! :lol:

[Scotty]

Hey All :D Sean, thanks for the informative post. There is a terrible shortage of reliable information for Victoria enthusiasts. You can't even trust the published materials 100%. The book "Lake Victoria Basin Cichlids" by Smith has a pic of "L. ishmaeli" on page 77. Not only does it look nothing like any of the pics here, what it does resemble very strongly is my male Bloyeti Green :shock: Until I did some more research, that pic led me to mistakenly believe that my Bloyetis had finally been named :x I've had these fish for over two years now, and as far as info goes, the pickings are pretty slim.

I would also like to compliment your website. I'm receiving an adult group of Blue Bar Hippo point haps this week. I found the pic and article about them on your site a few weeks back. To date, your site is the "only" place I've found with any info on this fish at all. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't even know what the fish look like yet :roll: If you have any other info on Blue Bars, or know of any other sources for it, I'd love to hear about it from you. Thanks again..............Scott :wink:

[Scotty]

Jonah- Listen to that mermaid!!! 8) I keep shell dwellers in with my Victorias and they get along fine. I've had good luck with "Julies" also. You gotta be creative because the Vics interbreed to easily. That means one Hap species to a tank. I've never tried them with Mbuna, but am thinking about a Hap/Tropheus tank. I'll report back with the results.

[SGypsyMermaid]

scott--how are you going to handle the feeding issue in a tank with haps and tropheus. aren't the tropheus very strict vegetarians? do you think that the haps will spawn if fed on the meatless diet of tropheus? i've never kept tropheus, mind you--that's just what i've gleaned from my reading.

[Scotty]

Hey SGM :D Tropheus, like Mbuna, do pick up some protien from thier scraping. Observations of my Haps seem to indicate they like a lot of veggies also. I maintain my Adult haps on a diet of three different spirulina flakes, and twice weekly feedings of frozen Mysis and frozen spirulina enriched brine shrimp. Tropheus will thrive on this diet as well. I am also going to start with adult haps (the Blue Bars), and juvenile Tropheus, which will allow me to feed less protein, and the Tropheus will be able to grow up adapted to my diet. A lot of the problems with Tropheus seem to be less severe now that there are more captive bred fish. A lot of europeans maintain them on a higher protein "shrimp paste" for faster growth, but I personally don't wan't to go that route.

[SGypsyMermaid]

well...in that case, i want dibs on your first batch of fry! :D

[Scotty]

Blue Bars, Tropheus, or both???? :D I'm leaning toward Tropheus Moorii Moliro. There's an auction with a pic in the Tanganyika section of Aquabid.

[SGypsyMermaid]

i gotta look at the blue bar's--but those moliro's are incredible--maybe by the time that you have fry, i'll actually have somewhere to put them.

[Sean]

Scotty first thanks for the compliment on the site. Being a victorian enthusiast I noticed the lack of a good site for info on victorians and a serious need because of the amount of confusion on them.

As far as the Blue Bars I believe if they are ever classified they will probably be classified under the Pundamilia genus because they share many similar traits with most of the nyererei that I have kept. They tend to be fairly aggressive as far as victorians go, when I had them I had to seperate the females from the male because he would chase them around the tank constantly. I was only able to get one batch of live fry out of them even though I got several spawns. Like with all of my other fish I just fed them flake food.


On a totally unrelated note are you still looking for the neon gobies Jonah?

[jonah]

Yes, how much? If it's reasonable, and compatible with each other and the gramma, I'd like 2 for the nano. I'll probably call you tomorrow at work.

And do you have any shelldwellers at PetVet? I set up a 10g with some of the sand I got from Darkshadow. Something that works with that size would be nice. I'm probably going to keep the big tank as cichlids after all, I was thinking of going reef with it. Now the rest of the sand is just getting added to the 75g reef.

[Scotty]

Hey all 8) Thanks for the additional info Sean. They'll be going into an 80 gallon tank. Two males and three females. I've had better luck keeping the more aggressive species with two males sharing at least 4 horizontal feet of real estate. This allows them both to set up territories.The males mostly bicker with each other, and leave the females alone. I've kept my group of Bloyetis this way for two years with no deaths and relative harmony. I have more fry than I know what to do with :roll:

[Sean]

Yes we have some wild caught multifasciatus for $14.99 at the store right now along with Neothauma shells $3.99 from Tanganyika to go with them.

The neon gobies would not be through the store but on a personal order that I am getting in. Cost would be $15 each. I think they would get along with the gramma well but am not positive. Most fish don't bother cleaning fish. I will keep them for a week to make sure they are healthy before I let them go. Give you an excuse to come over and see the legendary garage. :D

Do you have any photos of your Bloyetti Scotty? That is one fish that I don't have and haven't had yet. So if you have a bunch I might be interested in some if you can ship some. Might be able to work out some kind of a trade or something. Have lots of fish and lots of holey limestone.

[Scotty]

Sean- I've been getting a lot of pic requests for these fish. I'll snap one and get in scanned in over the weekend. Can I E-mail it to you through your website? If not you can "Private Message" me your E-mail addy through this site. It basically looks identical to a Ruby Green without the red on the head. It does have the same red and blue fin highlights though. The intense green set against the jet black underside is beautiful. A trade would be fine, and I can ship with no problems. I can give you a nice group of fifteen or so juvies. I have four females from two different bloodlines, and can make sure you get fish from at least three. I'd take some of any kind of Hap. in return. I'm more interested in spreading these fish around, and having fun, than worried about which kind is rarer or more valuable 8) so just pick something you'll think I'd like.

[SGypsyMermaid]

scott--i don't take pictures, so i don't know all of the ins and outs of digital photography--but would you consider posting a pic in the gallery?

[Scotty]

Sure SGM 8) This is a bit new to me too. I have a great Nikon film camera and a scanner, so digitizing it won't be a problem. It's what to do from there that I'm a little fuzzy on :shock: I think I have to go to a site that hosts photos :? If anyone can give me some pointers, or direct me to some info, it would be much appreciated.

[SGypsyMermaid]

you won't have to go anywhere else--cichlid pete will hook you up--he's the resident digital guru. :wink:

[Chet]

I just got around to reading this thread, and I find the intense scientific discussion and genuine concern on the part of all parties quite admirable. I would also like to say that you are all very lucky. I have only seen Vics in pictures, and the only Tangs I have ever seen were Burundi fronts and a few brichardi. Access to such beautiful and rare fish is virtually unheard of here. In fact, the supply of cichids in general is severely limited locally. I just wanted to say I am jealous and to keep up the good work. Maybe if enough hobbyist raise and breed these fish, they will become more available and more affordable for folks like me. :D

[SGypsyMermaid]

chet, i felt the same way until recently--many of the fish that i have now are not available at the lfs. for me, it's worth it to pay shipping charges in order to have fish that make my heart sing!

[SGypsyMermaid]

i forgot to mention, though--i am broke and busted! :lol:

[Scotty]

Hey All 8) Chet- being in Texas, you're actually in a better position than SGM and myself in the Northeast. I get all my fish through the mail also , and mostly from the south. I'd be glad to work out something with you if you want some Bloyetis next month when my next batch gets a bit bigger. Let me know.


SGM- Got the low down, no bucks for fish blues, huh :bawl: We've all been there. I still have fish put aside for your next visit to L.I., so buck up little soldier :lol:

[Chet]

Yeah, Armke's is only about 2 hours from here. I wonder if he would entertain walk-in business? I don't mind paying his prices, but I can't afford to order enough fish at once to make shipping them worthwhile. I guess I'll just have to call and find out. Also, I did some research today and made a few calls and it looks like there may be a store in south Houston that has a decent selection of fish, including the shellies I so desperately want. I've got an email into them and I guess we'll see.

[SGypsyMermaid]

chet--i'm pretty sure that armkes will let you pick up your fish--they're real friendly folks.

scott--thanks guy--you know i've been on a fish-buying blitz for the past year, ever since i discovered fish-by-mail! what you may not know is that i've also spent a small fortune on aquarium books, paraphernalia--and mermaids on ebay! so i'm very happy that we can do the barter thing so that i can get my fish fix! :D

[Scotty]

Barter my arse :D Tell me what you want and it's yours. Just let me know when you'll be out my way again. P.M. me when you're ready and I'll let you know what I've got. Your mail order buying spree is what keeps me in shipping boxes :wink:

[SGypsyMermaid]

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: thanks, scotto!!--you're an officer and a gent!

[SGypsyMermaid]

As far as Labrochromis ishmaeli, I really don't know how it got mixed up in the whole mess. The real Labrochromis ishmaeli in no way shape or form resembles the fish that is being commonly traded as ishmaeli. To start with the head on Labrochromis ishmaeli is much more blunt, much like the sp. Salmon. The body coloration is just gold with faint black bars no other colors.
Sean

after reading this and looking at the photo that sean believes to be the real ishmaeli, i went to the haplochromine fishes of the east african lakes by p h greenwood. on page 185, he describes the coloration of the ishmaeli :

"Coloration of live fishes. Sexually active males. Ground colour light yellow-green dorsally, shading to yellow on the flanks and greyish-white ventrally. Dorsal fin yellow-green, lappets of the anterior spines dusky, the remainder scarlet, as are the spots and dashes between the branched rays. Caudal fin greyish, with red maculae(sometimes coalesced) between the rays. Anal smoky grey with black lappets and an overall scarlet flush; ocelli yellow. Pelvic fins black. Females golden-green shading to silvery-white ventrally, the pectoral region faintly blackish. Dorsal fin hyaline, with a narrow red margin. Anal light yellowish-green. Caudal and pelvic fins pale yellow."

his description and the drawing on page 184 do not indicate a blunt snout.
this contrasts with the description of the fish that you got from dr. loiselle--can you direct me to any writings by dr. loiselle regarding the ishmaeli?

[SGypsyMermaid]

The book "Lake Victoria Basin Cichlids" by Smith has a pic of "L. ishmaeli" on page 77. Not only does it look nothing like any of the pics here, what it does resemble very strongly is my male Bloyeti Green

scott--i looked at that photo, and it seems to be consistent with dr. greenwood's description of the ishmaeli, but it doesn't look like the one photo of the bloyeti that i have seen. i've got to try to track down that photo, and any others that i can find--i'll share anything that i find with you.

[SGypsyMermaid]

scott--here are some of the bloyeti pics that i've found:

http://home20.inet.tele.dk/fcl/tan98/bloyeti.htm

http://cichlidae.netliberte.org/CICHLIDS/photo/05_04_bloyeti1.jpg

http://cichlidae.netliberte.org/CICHLIDS/photo/05_04_bloyeti2.jpg

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/victoria-cichlids/photo/A_bloyeti_0_v.jpg

[Sean]

Well since you don't believe me here is a link to the photo that Les Kaufman e-mailed me of the real Labrochromis ishmaeli.

http://www.theaquariumexchange.com/LoiselleIshmaeli2.jpg

Here is a link to a photo on fishbase.org of a Labrochromis ishmaeli

http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/Photos/PicturesSummary.cfm?StartRow=1&ID=6754&what=species

Both of these photos are much better than the one I originally posted the link to the other day and I guarantee you Les Kaufman would not have e-mailed me the photo if it wasn't the correct species.

[SGypsyMermaid]

sean--your evidence is very compelling.

[SGypsyMermaid]

scott--notice that the fish in sean's pics look like the fish in the barron's photo. if your fish look like this--please be sure to remember that you've reserved some in my name!! :lol:

[SGypsyMermaid]

more l. ishmaeli photos in line with sean's argument:

http://www.cichlidae.be/c_labrochromis_ishmaeli.htm

[Scotty]

Hey All, My fish looks like the green fish in Bloyeti 02 jpg. Mine are much more intensely green though, and have jet black throat and ventral markings. Could just be the fish in the pics aren't happy at being held in someones hand :shock: Sean, you must have a later edition of the book with a corrected pic. The pic in mine looks nothing like any of the ishmaeli photos you posted. I had a really busy weekend, but promise to get some photos of my fish posted ASAP

[SGypsyMermaid]

Sean, you must have a later edition of the book with a corrected pic. The pic in mine looks nothing like any of the ishmaeli photos you posted.

it wasn't sean who said that--it was me.

[Scotty]

Accckk!! Sorry :oops: I was out hiking all weekend. That's what I get for trying to catch up on all my reading in five minutes :oops: By the way, I still have some fish put aside for you so I'm not totally a loser, just mostly :wink:

[SGypsyMermaid]

Accckk!! Sorry :oops: I was out hiking all weekend. That's what I get for trying to catch up on all my reading in five minutes :oops: By the way, I still have some fish put aside for you so I'm not totally a loser, just mostly :wink:

whoaaaa--take it easy on yourself--you just misread the post!! :) :shock: :)

[samak]

Hello, H.spp44 is a generic name, you can find more than 4 or 5 species in this name. But ,if you really watch them carefully, you will see différences between those species.
Friendly Christophe

[Cichlid Jeans]

The posts in this thread assume that species are to be distinguished on the basis of coloration or other visuals -- that different species must look different.

I think I recall from Bio 103 that, within any species, there can be wide variability in colouration and morphology. Individuals of different species may resemble each other more than they resemble the types of their own respective species. In fact, colouration and morphology have nothing to do with species, except to the extent the animals themselves use these features to select mates.

Okay, I admit that was prior to Woodstock II. Have things changed :?:

[SGypsyMermaid]

The posts in this thread assume that species are to be distinguished on the basis of coloration or other visuals -- that different species must look different.

I think I recall from Bio 103 that, within any species, there can be wide variability in colouration and morphology. Individuals of different species may resemble each other more than they resemble the types of their own respective species. In fact, colouration and morphology have nothing to do with species, except to the extent the animals themselves use these features to select mates.

Okay, I admit that was prior to Woodstock II. Have things changed :confused:

i do not argue the point since i did not take bio 103; i did, however, point out that my observations were not scientific.

[samak]

Hello all, The three fishes belong to three différents species. Astatoreochromis alluaudi is a molluscivorous( a pharyngeal crusher) who have a wild distribution in east Africa(you can put him apart of the others haplochromines because he have more than 4 spines in the anal fin) Haplochromis ishmaeli belong to the same trophic group but doesn't occur at the same place in the wild, he comes only from Victoria lake. H.obliquidens is a epiphytic scraper who live in the Victoria Nile and in the lake. All of them are différent in head shape and morphology.
@ bientôt Christophe

[SGypsyMermaid]

christophe--a. alluaudi was not really part of the discussion, though i thought that some of sean's pictures ressembled a. alluaudi. what made you mention the alluaudi?

[SGypsyMermaid]

here are some pics of my "ishmaelis"...the colors of the actual fish are much brighter.

http://www.cichlidgallery.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=Mermaids-Ishmaelis

[cichlidfish]

Good work Sean! I posted another thread but dont see this one on the main list???

[cichlidfish]

The small Astatotilapias you were calling ishmaeli are from old world heritage. They recieved something like 100 males and one single female caught at lakeside in the dark at night with a small hand net when they would come to the lapping edge. I was happy to have an F2 colony from an F1 colony laif brought out to cali from the original shipment parents hepicked out. Where the other 99 males went is everywhere and they were bred with scraper and aneocolor females at first. There are some lines of laifs running around still but I have not seen at what degree lately. The distinction of the bloodline I am talking about was small size 3 inch body max. Small pointed sheller mouth for eating those shoreline snail at night, lol, and the rows of spots on the dorsal fin. Enjoy them and take care of them. :)

[SGypsyMermaid]

Originally posted by cichlidfish
The small Astatotilapias you were calling ishmaeli are from old world heritage. They recieved something like 100 males and one single female caught at lakeside in the dark at night with a small hand net when they would come to the lapping edge. I was happy to have an F2 colony from an F1 colony laif brought out to cali from the original shipment parents hepicked out. Where the other 99 males went is everywhere and they were bred with scraper and aneocolor females at first. There are some lines of laifs running around still but I have not seen at what degree lately. The distinction of the bloodline I am talking about was small size 3 inch body max. Small pointed sheller mouth for eating those shoreline snail at night, lol, and the rows of spots on the dorsal fin. Enjoy them and take care of them. :)

hi jon...are you referring to my "ishmaelis" in this post? do they have a name other than astatotilapia sp.? btw, i had males from 2 different sources in my colony, but post blackout, i only have females...so much for taking care of them.:(

[cichlidfish]

No they were never identified.:confused: An ichthyologist Victorian expert at Boston said to use Astatotilapia sp. "thick skin" which means unknown but points out the color pattern and body shapes.
H. sp.44 is interchangeable with "thickskin", they both mean of that color pattern and not formally identified. Whenever you see the sp. used it means not identified, but guessed to possibly be in a certain genus by outward appearances. Seeing how they have been my favorite fish for a long time I wish there was identification, if we can get more from laif and send them to boston they will do this but I dont know if old world still is breeding them.

[SGypsyMermaid]

i believe that my "ishmaelis" are a different species from my thickskin/sp. 44's.

[cichlidfish]

there are probably 10 species and 50 hybrids under those names, they are not likely to be the same thing from 2 different sources is why I advise not mixing groups of vics unless you are very sure on latin names or breeding heritage.

[cichlidfish]

Just for giggles, the ishmaeli thing has been explained by Sean very well. The funny thing is that now people who had seen the french pictures with the anal fin folded are running around anouncing they have Labrochromis ishmaeli. The other pictures show the odd raised up high in a tight group anal fin egg spots on the "real" ishmaeli set it apart from the photos I have seen of some "L. ishmaeli" for sale with the egg spots neetly along the bottom of the anal fin (Astatotilapia caleptera from malawi!)

[cichlidfish]

me again, lol some pics of my "ishskin44"

[cichlidfish]

&

[cichlidfish]

I should get back to ohio in september, if these are the ones you have I'll see about getting a male to you.

[cichlidfish]

&

[SGypsyMermaid]

are those two pics of the same fish? here are some pics of my "ishmaelis". i pointed out the differences that i noted between them and my sp. 44's earlier in this thread. i haven't gotten around to taking pics of the 44's, yet.

http://www.cichlidgallery.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=Mermaids-Ishmaelis

[cichlidfish]

no, they are brothers or cousins in the pics, fin rips are from fighting each other they are some hyper lovlies. Johnny gantz had these too, I have seen your pics and think they are the same fish.

[cichlidfish]

& lol another shot

[SGypsyMermaid]

it's probably due to the poor quality of my photos that you can't see the difference, but they are not the same fish. yours are more like my 44's. my "ishmaelis" have a steeper slope to the head and a deeper chest.

[cichlidfish]

Yours must be all crosses then or you are reading too much into the photos angles, these close ups dont show the diamond body shape like your silowets(sp?) do, but that shape I see in yours is rare among 44s. in my photos the black bottoms hide the real shape, mine are steeper in the head slope and deeper in the chest than these photos imply. The pics I sent are the only traceable to a wild group fish of that color pattern in the USA at F2 and F3. If you want to write me offline about where they came from I know a lot about who breeds what how on vics. Secondly the middle pic with coral is a juvie about 1.5 inch, and the others are older 3 inch fish.

[SGypsyMermaid]

it seems to me that to assume that my fish are all crosses without knowing where they came from or even seeing both strains is a bit precipitous. in any case, i got the two strains of "ishmaelis" from aquabidders 'lem47' and 'hellcat37d'. i have not taken photos of the 44's yet.

[cichlidfish]

dear they are all crosses, I have been on this obliquidens trail 5 years and am sure there are no sp 44s from orginal stock, no thickskins except from the recent "ishmaeli" that are from any original stocks, the parents (except for the ones I am talking about) were imported and crossed 20 years ago on purpose. All 44s and thickskins are crosses (hybrids if you like that better), the names mean nothing but that someone wanted to get them sold and heard obliquidens was not cool to call them. They are my favorite fish BTW.

[cichlidfish]

its a big mess of junk out there, I am going to germany and france to get better for the ponds, not trying to put you down, I hope you love your fish as I love those types, but going on 50 pages here to try and identify is useless because there is no way to prove the 50 breedings that have happened before you got the fish. Unless as I said they are from the last ones laif got in 1999(98?) they are all hybrids of ancient history, named by photos instead of breeding heritage or records of liniage. I am trying to help you see which ones you should focus on, your 'ishmaelis" have the best chance of being less than 20 years hybridized.

[SGypsyMermaid]

thank you, "dear", for your attempts to assist and educate me.

[cichlidfish]

the real deal with vics is setting up breeding of 20 or 30 species, keeping them all seperate, and figuring it out later, I am also trying to stear you into other fish (not from me but in general) that need your help. There is no time to quibble over the hybrids, it just keeps the public you are trying to help here confused and shy of keeping vics. In other words the activity on forums is mostly driving people away from vics. You have the attitude but we are very short of victorian keepers any more and I just wanted to make the point that sp 44 and thickskin names are intechangable guesses that will never be allowed for release because of the controversy and you should delete this whole thread, all 5 pages and put a note about the findings.

[SGypsyMermaid]

thank you for your input, but i happen to believe that friendly discussions which allow people to express different views are healthy, so i will not be deleting the thread.

[cichlidfish]

Friendly resurections of the obliquidens controversy are causeing 50 other species to be dropped or as they commonly say "discontinued" by public breeders. It implies that all vics are in the same mess which is not true and has caused the number one effort by the public to save a flock ever to crash completly in the last 5 years. This obliquidens debate was settled in the 90s and not a good thing to base your group on in my opinion and keep dragging up ancient history about how they are crossbreeds and unknowns. My idea is that there are plenty of other vics no one is talking about getting thrown away as you read this. I did get good news from the director of zoos in england, the UICN and zoos are finally drafting methods for the hobby to interact and it is at the last moment for vics. Most of the scientists have the standing that because of the controversy and crossing that all vics are to be destroyed and forgotten, some in the zoos and in the private sector disagree and the need to get a new grip in the public before we loose these fish forever is tragicly of top importance. In my opinions friendly obliquiden discusions have exticted and destroyed quite a few vic species already, and I can not equate free speach to (involuntary or not)genocide. I am trying to suggest something constructive, maybe a breeders award or something, who has the most species contest, something.....

[samak]

The fish in the photos gallery are not ishmaeli but a sp 44 varient .
Chris

[cichlidfish]

both ishmaeli and sp 44 are common names, actually Les said Astatolilapia "thick skin" was best to call the F1s, labrochromis ishmaeli is a myth many people have A. caleptera, or Paralabidochromis paucidens and think they have L. ishmaeli but they do not exist except a male or pair at one zoo according to SSP.

[cichlidfish]

PS I think it was shed aquarium in 1960s named the A. thichskins of that type Haplochromis ishmaeli, if I find the info again I will post it, we use it as a common name to designate the bloodline from old world wild caught in 1999 some of us have.

[samak]

Hi we do have Haplochromis ishmaeli in Europe( I saw them in the Leiden university aquarias) and it's a valid species described by Greenwood and it's a real different fish from the pic in the photo gallery
Sorry
Chris

[samak]

Hi, ishmaeli is a valid species described by Greenwood(I saw them alive in the Leiden university aquarias) it's a different fish from the one on the photo gallery. The one on the pic looks much more an obliquidens like species.
I know controversies on this type of species but the main problem is misidentification of the fishes(thick skin, brownae, obliquidens,Mbipia lutea)For someone who want to start with vics, it cannot be resolve easily, he can find in the traders shop one species with 3 or 4 differents names.
Chris

[cichlidfish]

you are right, that is why some of us used the Haplochromis ishmaeli name not Labrochromis ishmaeli, I have Cyathochromis obliquidens "Mbamba Bay" coming in from Tanzania the 16th! lol The first name is important, many of the Haplochromis names have been changed anyway. really, non of us called these Labrochromis ishmaeli, we were using Haplochromis, I have changed the name to A. thickskin on my web page but did not rename the picture file. :)